Why is SSF2T so damn hard?

[pubjoe]

I 40cc'd this the other day.

Ok, once and for all, what happened here? I've heard assumptions (and made my own). But really, does anyone know the real definate reason for the western version of super turbo being so rediculously HARD?

I've heard various ideas. I thought perhaps that capcom decided westerners have more pocket money to keep pumping in. But you know, sometimes I think it was just a male chicken up.

There isn't much difference in AI behaviour when you crank up the difficulty - just the 'house edge' increases (by that I mean things like unfair health loss advantages and never-ending yoga noogies etc). Also, the first battle is no more easy than the last.

In every other SF version, as you increase the difficulty, the house edge goes up, but also the computer's activeness increases as well as earlier stages getting harder. These last two things don't happen on Super Turbo. They're already set to max. The only thing that increases by cranking the difficulty is the house edge.

This makes me think that, just maybe, it really could have been a programming bug.

Can anyone shed any light on this?

[megaultrasuper]

I don't think it's a bug.

The reason I think so is because the Super X AI is just so different, even at max difficulty, from the ST AI.

The Super X AI actually emulates a human player. It will pace back and forth, poke, and even fake. If you do a move it will not read your inputs and use the perfect counter 99% of the time. It is also much more difficult to trick. It won't fall for the same move over and over.

So if it was just a glitch that set the difficulty to max from the start you would expect the Super X AI to be as difficult as the ST AI when set to maximum difficulty. But that's not the case. The Super X max difficulty is still nothing like the ST AI at any level.

My theory was the AI was rewritten for ST. It was simplified. This means that it doesn't evolve over the course of the game, and it reads the players inputs.

As to why this was done, who knows? Capcom does ridiculous things all the time when localizing a game.. Like Changing names. Is John Talbain better than Gallon, B.B. Hood better than Bulleta, Lord Raptor instead of Zabel?

****, why would they change "spiral arrow" into "cannon drill"? It's just pointless!

My guess is the difficulty was increased due to pressure from OPs to make players lose and credit feed the game. By the time ST came out a lot of casual fans had the basic skills to get past the first few characters of Super. I'm guessing they wanted players to lose in either their first or second match. Also why the bonus stages were removed.

[d123456]

So to clarify this thread is about the difference of difficulty between Super Street Fighter X and Super Street Fighter Turbo which are the same game but one is Japanese and the other is Western, US or EU (unverified)
The Western version? US version or EU version or both?
Wow, I had no idea there even was a difficult version of the game!
How can I play this besides pcb or mame?
Is this level of AI in any port?
I should get back into mame, to try this.
Thanks for the heads up!

[CPS2]

Cheap, not hard.

Turbo can do things that aren't possible, walking forward sonic booms etc.

You can beat the computer but its no fun.

[pubjoe]

Thanks for the replies.

I understand the 'take money faster' reasoning. But then, operators would be able to control that just fine with a proper difficulty setting.

I was tearing my hair out playing it through, and thinking about how the battles don't get progressively harder. Then I checked the difficulty setting and it was on 2 - very easy. I wacked it up to 9 - hardest, and there was bugger all difference really except for the 'house edge'. That's why I started to think it could be a bug. Level 9 seems how it should be (and would please the ops), but the lower levels don't really change by much.

Also, tbh Super Turbo was pretty much ignored in the day when it came to the arcades near me. 50p a go? Ok then. Crappy joysticks? Yeah yeah. But the impossible learning curve? Forget it. Isn't that what the difficulty setting should be there for? To let ops adjust as necessary and maximise players/credits? It almost seems a waste of time that the setting is even there.

I'm all for the rock hard mode. Especially for ownership/replay value. But I still have a feeling that it seems more than just an oversight that it's not adjustable. Afterall, all the later SF series games went straight back to a piece of **** level-1 mode, and the difficulty setting created a good range again.

Home versions. I dunno, never played 'em. Sorry d123456.

You can beat the computer but its no fun.

Yeah. More pattern memory I suppose. There's a fair few methods to learn. Eg: Jump straight up roundhouse seems to work with many opponants - timing can vary. Also hanging back a lot and countering, because you can't jump in and beat the AI's reflexes unless they occasionally just 'decide' to be hit ...Not exactly fun though.

The AI seems to have 2 or 3 different modes it can swap between for each character. **** mode, mother-**** mode and ****-hell-Jesus-Christ-I-only-had-3-seconds-to-go-until-time-out-you-cheating-**** mode. You need to recognise which mode it's in and associated patterns to beat it really. If you do this though, gameplay gets a bit clinical.

The Super X AI actually emulates a human player. It will pace back and forth, poke, and even fake. If you do a move it will not read your inputs and use the perfect counter 99% of the time. It is also much more difficult to trick. It won't fall for the same move over and over.

Hmmmm veeery interesting. Tbh, I've never really tried SSF2X. But I have the Japanese board on the way, so I'm keen to try it now. ...Actually, I'm going to give it the ultimate test vs Chun Li: Crouch > wait > uppercut.

[megaultrasuper]

Is this level of AI in any port?

The PS2 and Xbox US version of Hyper Street Fighter II: Anniversary Edition have the same difficult AI as Super Turbo. I'm not sure about the Euro release, but I would guess it does too.

[d123456]

M. Bison, will not let this one slip and be extra cheap from now on.
beware! He will crush you.
http://kotaku.com/5384019/look-everybod ... me-m-bison

[wigsplitta]

The AI seems to have 2 or 3 different modes it can swap between for each character. **** mode, mother-**** mode and ****-hell-Jesus-Christ-I-only-had-3-seconds-to-go-until-time-out-you-cheating-**** mode.

Too true! The AI really is a **** some all times!
I reallylove to just play carefree rounds, but it's just not enjoyable when the computer blocks and counters almost every move!
I agree with CPS2 - I think a defensive strategy is about the only way to beat it, but it's a lot less enjoyable!
Hell - I've had the game for years now, and I've only just beaten the game on 1cc, including Akuma!
And it always seems to be Zangief who refuses to lose! Damn his 'halfway-across-the-screen-grabs!'
That, and Akuma's 'three-hit-and-I'm-almost-dead-dragon-punch-after-teleport!'

[mikeidge]

my opinion is that by the time Super turbo came out....the casual players had moved on, and the hardcore were able to beat previous versions too easily....even on the hardest setting. obviously not profitable. they probably overdid it when amping up the difficulty for ST. since japan is more about 2 human players competing, they probably werent as concerned with the single player mode. i used to look for street fighter in any arcade around NJ, and when i did....i was usually able to beat it with 1 or 2 quarters.

with that being said......grand master challenge is BY FAR the better version for single player play. all the setting are accurate. and the hardest difficulty is pretty close to having the psychic AI of super turbo, without the unfair damage.

[wigsplitta]

What are peoples thoughts on the CPU cheating the input/output timeline? By this, i'm refering to the 'psychic' counter attacks.
Example timeline:-
Player : Presses button
CPU : Receives and decodes players command
CPU : Calculates computer opponants best move - counter or block
CPU : Returns computer oppontants best move
CPU : Returns players original move
Result : Player is reguarly beaten by a move that is timed to absolute perfection, or rather, a move that was decided upon AFTER you had executed yours!

This really seems like the case in SSFIIT, and it was backed up when playing SF Zero last night. I fought Akuma approx. 40 times, and only beat him once! The most giveaway times were when he reguarly just 'stopped' within striking distance and waited for me to do a move! No matter what move I did, he countered and won! And if you don't do any move at all, after doing nothin for a couple of secs, he moves in and grabs! Damn that was whack. Although, he's good fun the play against as he is for the most part, pretty unpredictable. He's more like a human opponant than a lot of other characters.
The day will come when he gets his 'wigsplitt'

[John James Pacinelli]

As a wise Proctologist once said "it doesn't matter if they speak well or ill about SF as long as they speak about SF. Also, what's this light bulb doing up to your ****?!"

i.e. I'm glad people are still talking about SF and trying to find new strategies after all these years. And I don't now how that bulb wound up there.

[ilazul]

I can't stand the AI in Super Turbo. I was even more **** off when the home port of Hyper had the same crappy opponents.

Blanka doing 3 hits, dizzying you, and then killing you on the fourth is absurd. I think its one of the main reasons I haven't gotten it on CPS2 yet. (J) has no free play, and (US) has crappy AI.

Which version do you need phoenixed to get both free play and non crappy AI? But then I think you get some wierd glitch during the demo or something.

[cools]

Which version do you need phoenixed to get both free play and non crappy AI? But then I think you get some wierd glitch during the demo or something.

The l337 hax0red Japan one.

Not seen any attract mode glitches on mine.

[mikeidge]

i dont understand why the lack of free play would bother anyone that owns a cab. just open the coin door and click in 9 credits.

[Munchies]

but that takes effort

[idc]

Which version do you need phoenixed to get both free play and non crappy AI? But then I think you get some wierd glitch during the demo or something.

Can someone elaborate as to what/where this glitch is? I don't recall ever seeing a glitch in any Phoenixed version, regardless of "default" region or whether it is run as Turbo or X.

[tony starks]

Zangiefs up+hp dizzies on SSF2X every time, whereas on ST I think it only does it in the first five seconds of the round, or not at all (fuzzy on that)

I also heard that Cammy's stage is glitchy, not sure if that it right though

[tony starks]

Apparently SSF2X phoenixed and running as SSF2T will crash on sagat vs cammy in 1P , unless its the fixed version, but meh who plays SSF2T anyway?

I need to get my roms haxored for freeplay in SSF2X damnit.

Haxored you say Tried the SSF2T rom yesterday.

Still fun though.

[ilazul]

There was a thread on NG.com when I was looking at getting SSF2X.

I think it was Coryoon's, and he advertised that it was pheonixed in a way that it wouldn't crash or have the "known glitch". I had heard it a few times before, that either US phoenixed to japanese or vice versa causes errors. Let me see if I can find it.

Edit: http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194177

I'll see if I can find the other thread, but I've heard of the problem a few times before.

[markedkiller78]

I have an original green, unphoenixd board & there still the odd glitch. No crashing what so ever, but the occasional graphical scramble / corruption for 1 frame in a million. It's happens on the rom in Mame too.