Accuracy of ‘Multi’ solutions…?

[ChrisBEANS]

So, I’ve had this discussion privately with a number of people, all of whom are well respected, really know their stuff, and are legitimate enthusiasts with nothing to gain from adopting one position or another… and yet everybody has a different view on this subject.

With that in mind, I thought I’d open it up to public discussion/debate, see if we can reach an objective conclusion…

I’ve come to this hobby late, and I have to accept that it’s not practical or financially viable to own everything in original hardware. So the next question is, if it’s not original hardware, is it worth having at all??

I’m coming to this from the point of view of a gamer, NOT a collector. Of course, as a collector, original everything, as pristine as possible is the only way. So that’s that covered…


I think we all agree MAME is awesome, and if you want to check something out, or casually play something fun or nostalgic, then it’s convenient and free. Hooray.
I think the vast majority also agree that’s it’s inauthentic and very often inaccurate. Especially if you’re trying to play some double deadly SHMUP for a super duper high score. Incorrect clock speeds and input lag means it’s great for accessibility, but no good for ‘serious’ gaming. (For the record, I love MAME, just trying to be objective)

After MAME comes MiSTer, which is effectively a natural evolution of emulation. This uses FPGA to emulate the original hardware more accurately and therefore is purported to be a more authentic experience. There is still the argument of input lag even with MiSTer to JAMMA solutions. People seem to be split 50/50 on whether FPGA really is any better than MAME or not?


Then there are the dodgy bootleg multi solutions for real hardware, like the 161 in 1 for the Neo Geo. Many poorly dumped roms, and cheap and inconsistent hardware between versions means there’s a myriad of issues here, not only with sound, gameplay, even accurate code for games. Ok if you’re super casual I guess, but if you’re super casual, sticking to MAME is probably a better, and clearly a cheaper way forward.


Now we’re getting to the part I’m really interested in getting an actually objective and factual answer to. It’s unlikely, as googling, and having conversations at best gives conflicting opinions and nothing measurable or objective…
These are the FPGA multi solutions used on real hardware.
Things like the console Everdrives, Terra Onion NeoSD MVS multi, and the Darksoft CPS2 multi…

These solutions run original code through original hardware, and to my mind should therefore be indistinguishable from from the players perspective to playing on real hardware. Right?

Anecdotally, I have the Krikzz Mega Everdrive (X7 I think??), and I absolutely cannot tell any difference between using this, and using any of my original carts.
Likewise, I have a NeoSD Pro and again I cannot tell any difference between my real carts and using this thing. By way of further subjective experience, I’m pretty familiar with Metal Slug. I can 1cc it, no death it, 1cc it at the hardest difficulty, and I’ve just started to dabble in playing for score too. I know where it slows down, exactly how it sounds, exactly how it feels and responds. I always play on my real cart, but as a personal experiment I played on the NeoSD Pro and it felt identical.
If I played an OG cart and the NeoSD Pro next to each other in a blind test, I would not be able to tell the difference. I can only speak for Metal Slug, as it’s the one game I know well enough to speak on with authority.

The Darksoft CPS2 should be the same deal, right? Original code, through original hardware via FPGA. I have no personal experience of it, but again my research and conversations seem to show 50/50 subjective experiences of both ‘they look feel and play exactly the same, it’s indistinguishable’ and ‘no, it just isn’t the same!’.

Lastly there are conversions… these (to my completely noobish knowledge) are all completely original hardware, bar a number of ROM chips that have been swapped. In this case, the code is exactly the same as an original ROM, it’s just simply that it’s usually for a more popular or rarer game and so the ROM chips for a cheap or unpopular game are removed and replaced. I can’t imagine there would be any distinguishable difference at all. I have heard, the the PGM conversions of Ketsui and Espgaluda for example, and any of the CPS2 conversions (not Phoenix) are effectively ‘perfect’ versions of the original games.



As an aside, I completely get the experience and feel of original hardware, which is why I have carefully curated a small collection of MVS carts, and still have more on my list despite having a multi solution that already plays these games.

So, does anyone know of any objective measure of the accuracy of these multi solutions at all??

What are your feelings or experiences with them?

[buffi]

While FPGA solutions like Mister has the potential to be more accurate than software emulation, in practice they are still just blackbox emulating hardware behavior that's often not fully understood, which will lead to (at least) minor inaccuracies. As an example, DDP on Mister does not do the sprite glitches that gen1 Cave games do on real hardware.

Conversions can be very accurate... or problematic, depending on the platform. If the conversions are between games with essentially the same base hardware (like MVS carts or whatever), then it will be 100% accurate.

Multis that just swap out ROM contents (like a good MVS multi or Darksoft cps2) will typically be 100% accurate as well.

[geotrig]

I have more multi s than I ever planned :sigh: * 1 cps2 ,would much prefer originals of everything

[ChrisBEANS]

I have more multi s than I ever planned :sigh: * 1 cps2 ,would much prefer originals of everything

But is that because you’re a collector and you appreciate the medium, or are there issues with the games themselves?

I do get the pull of original hardware, but strictly as a gamer, particularly when talking CPS2, would I be missing anything by using a multi?

[zak]

would I be missing anything by using a multi?

A healthy bank account.

[zak]

I bought an original Area 88 after 1cc'ing it on the French multi several times. I couldn't tell the difference.

So the multi actually just made me seek out originals not because of accuracy....but because "I am the dumb".

[geotrig]

I bought an original Area 88 after 1cc'ing it on the French multi several times. I couldn't tell the difference.

So the multi actually just made me seek out originals not because of accuracy....but because "I am the dumb".

I'm the very same but my bank balance said no !

I have more multi s than I ever planned :sigh: * 1 cps2 ,would much prefer originals of everything

But is that because you’re a collector and you appreciate the medium, or are there issues with the games themselves?

I do get the pull of original hardware, but strictly as a gamer, particularly when talking CPS2, would I be missing anything by using a multi?

I wouldn't say collector per se just someone who likes original arcade hardware ,I do also have an appreciation of some of the older "boots" that did the rounds back in the 80's/90's but would still prefer an original hardware piece , I've made my piece that i'll never get my hands on a few games that i would like.

Forgot I also have a converted avp n:problem: that I bought not realising at the time it was a conversion ,again no noticeable difference and have some of those pgm conversions as the originals these days are out of my price range, **** ..nearly everyting is these days ,I also run netboot for id1/2/3 over hooking up gd drive , netboot to me is no different and its just a pain to swap chips and load a cd !
I have a 90's pang3 boot and original and again no difference that I can tell.
im like a pirate with all these there boots

[geotrig]

I also had an original and boot /conversion cads and dinos , the conversion ran on original hardware with the sound board deleted , it looped the sound which was really awful and buggy as hell on the later on stages.

[arcnl]

So, does anyone know of any objective measure of the accuracy of these multi solutions at all??

No, not really. You'll pretty much end up with a multi-page topic without an answer to this question

What are your feelings or experiences with them?

For the purist they will never be good enough. For the general gamer they usually are good enough.
For me personally i'm not interested. I find the cost for most of them to be quite outrageous and i'm pretty annoyed with some companies behind them (looking at you terraonion). There are plenty of things that don't work as they should, and for some things you're reliant on someone making a firmware which might or might not fix your expensive multicart. Part of the charm of these older games is that they are plug and play and "just work" without the whole update-circus we have had for a few generations of consoles, but the multi's basically throw that concept in the bin. For example, this is part of the changelog of the megaSD firmware, which doesnt fix everything or introduces new problems by itself:

Firmware 1.05 R02
Add support for Demons of Asteborg
\Add support for Sonic Delta
Improve Sega Master System game detection by game ID, it will help supporting save ram for translations
Fix some games having incorrect sound when RAM cheats are used
Fix Sonic & Knuckles not booting as standalone
Fix Robo Aleste not booting
Fix Might and Magic 3 not saving
Fix Star Trek TNG: Echoes from the Past crashing if trying to load a game without any saved game
Fix Phantasy Star 1 "Complete" translation not saving
Fix NHL '96 not saving

Personally i stick to emulators nowadays.

[aerobert]

I wrote it recently in another thread. Multis are nice, but I wont be using them very much. I don't have enough time as it is, and multis aren't exactly cheap either. So I rather spend money on an original game I like and TRY to get value out of through play time. There's no point for me spending money on multis containing many games I never can get around to spend time on anyway. I usually also loose interest fairly quickly when I have many games to select from. I spend 10 minutes on this, nah, wasn't interesting, go to the next spend 10 minutes there and so on.

No, I can't have hardware collecting dust. I buy the game I want to play. If it doesn't work I forward it to the next guy.

[nem]

There has to be a distinction made between a Darksoft CPS2 multi and, I don't know, a MiSTeR or a Pandora. The latter two are emulation, the first one isn't. You can't tell the difference between a Darksoft CPS2 multi and a real cart in game play. Saying anything else is just utter ****.

I don't buy the argument that having a multi equals way too many games and you'll never play anything. It's a mindset. Besides, I've seen you guys list your games in the inventory thread. How are you dedicating time to play dozens, if not hundreds, of original games? Count how many games you own that you haven't played in the last year.

Admit it, you like collecting and collecting physical things gives you satisfaction. A multi won't fill that void.

[aerobert]

I'm not argumenting anything. My view applies to me only. I know how I work.

I don't have that many games either. I have like 20 original PCB's, mostly puzzle and stg.

I do admit to buying New Fantasia while drunk at a friends house.

[ChrisBEANS]

I totally get the argument on ‘too much choice’ to be fair. It’s -also absolutely a mind set as pointed out, but that doesn’t make it any less of an issue!
I found when I used MAME that I’d spend more time flicking around than I would actually gaming. Much more, in fact.

However, this is also easily addressed. Only have the games loaded up that you’d actually buy in real life.

For me, as far as CPS2 goes, I’d be looking at Progear, SSFIIX, GigaWing, Mars Matrix, AvP, Hyper SFII… that little lot comes in way more expensive than a Darksoft Multi, and that’s if I can even find originals.

I don’t need to put the whole library on the SD card.

The more it’s discussed, the happier I am that the Darksoft CPS will give an indistinguishable gaming experience.
From my own experience, I know the NeoSD Pro give an indistinguishable experience too.

Conversions, by their nature have to be accurate, right? Assuming it’s a rom swap on identical hardware.

[geotrig]

pretty much , the problem with the darksoft multi and conversions people had originally was you had to have a dead board or kill a good board so it was slight frowned upon. with the inifikeys about it pretty much made it that a non issue. the thing with cps2 boads is they take up a bloody lot of space when you have a few !

[arcnl]

Conversions, by their nature have to be accurate, right? Assuming it’s a rom swap on identical hardware.

That depends, in this context "a conversion" is way too generic to say that.

For example: a megadrive cart with the rom desoldered and replaced: yes accurate
CPS2 Phoenix roms: accurate, but has had a lot of patches so you could in a rare case run into a crash
Conversion of playstation based hardware to g-net: missing music so only accurate if you ignore the sound part
Atomiswave to Naomi conversions: more slowdown so not accurate

For the multi carts that use FPGAs for various things the accuracy or stability would depend on how good the fpga code does its job.

[cools]

However, this is also easily addressed. Only have the games loaded up that you’d actually buy in real life.

For me, as far as CPS2 goes, I’d be looking at Progear, SSFIIX, GigaWing, Mars Matrix, AvP, Hyper SFII… that little lot comes in way more expensive than a Darksoft Multi, and that’s if I can even find originals.

I don’t need to put the whole library on the SD card.

You should. There are far better titles on CPS2 than that lot - they're just the highly regarded/priced ones.

[markedkiller78]

There’s no better game than 2x you charlatan

[geotrig]

well xmen xota > ssf2x

[zak]

I found when I used MAME that I’d spend more time flicking around than I would actually gaming. Much more, in fact.

MAME - Arcade Netflix.

[ChrisBEANS]

I found when I used MAME that I’d spend more time flicking around than I would actually gaming. Much more, in fact.

MAME - Arcade Netflix.

Ha, exactly!!!