exA-Arcadia

Coin-operated games and arcades.
StarCreator
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by StarCreator » February 8th, 2020, 12:03 pm

Shou wrote:
February 8th, 2020, 9:38 am
I think you’re confused in that we developed the game?

Sending complaints to us about a game we did not develop is equal to complaining to Microsoft about the lag in a Cave 360 port.

We do not make the game.
You have an issue with the game.
Send your issue to the company who makes the game which is Tanoshimasu.
If this is the stance the company is taking then buyers should be extremely concerned. We bought the game from you, not Tanoshimasu or a third party retailer, and you hold the sole means of fixing any problem with it; Tanoshimasu isn't going to be shipping game updates to us if we ask them, you are. That you are trying to remove yourself from the equation when you are the only one that can actually do anything to solve the problem makes it sound like we are just **** out of luck.

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by SuperPang » February 8th, 2020, 12:07 pm

Has anyone emailed Tanoshimasu yet?
Shou wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 10:44 MP
we passed your comments onto Tanoshimasu

Each player should send that feedback directly to Tanoshimasu. They do read all feedback even in English. As a result of your comments, we are having a discussion today with Tanoshimasu on this topic.
http://tanoshimasu.com/contact.php

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by sven666 » February 8th, 2020, 12:18 pm

honestly guys.. isnt the complaint about input lag just a complaint in general about the hardware of our times?

i wonder what is the input lag of the latest tekkens and SF games? less or more or equal?

I think its pretty clear that EXA have taken all the steps they can in order to minimise the lag.. no?

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by yosai » February 8th, 2020, 12:29 pm

sven666 wrote:
February 8th, 2020, 12:18 MP
honestly guys.. isnt the complaint about input lag just a complaint in general about the hardware of our times?

i wonder what is the input lag of the latest tekkens and SF games? less or more or equal?

I think its pretty clear that EXA have taken all the steps they can in order to minimise the lag.. no?
IIRC SFIV variations are running at 4-6 frames.

I think the issue here is why didn't Tanoshimasu optimize their game properly if the system can run at 2 frames. Maybe they'll patch it.

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by MrJBRPG » February 8th, 2020, 2:44 pm

I like to thank @Shou for giving out technical details about the input lag process. That really helps clear things up about some quality standards about the games developed for the Exa Arcadia platform. Additionally, we receive all new information that we have not known about before.
sven666 wrote:
February 8th, 2020, 12:18 MP
honestly guys.. isn't the complaint about input lag just a complaint in general about the hardware of our times?

i wonder what is the input lag of the latest tekkens and SF games? less or more or equal?

I think its pretty clear that EXA have taken all the steps they can in order to minimise the lag.. no?
I do not recall any other game console manufacturer that goes deep and be open about addressing the input lag beside Exa. I have encountered people discussing on shmups forums that record the input lag between various systems, such as Nintendo Switch, PS4, and Xbox, with different configurations and results. The games made for the platform also have input lag recorded too. Because @Shou clearly stated that games must be between 2-4 frames of input lag, using their own top-performing tools, developers have to consider the wide range of input lag as part of the experience as well. They have to consider trade-offs between extremely low input lag, but cannot run well on multiple machines, or moderate input lag that can run well on multiple machines.

Unless Exa Arcadia decides to invest into a new JVS IO board that is better (aka lowest input lag possible) than existing solutions, we will have to deal with existing machines and components and make the best out of them.

I am in agreement with @Shou that contacting developers is the best option we have for giving such feedback.


For anyone wanting to develop for the Exa Arcadia platform, they may want to consider the option to adjust game balance based on the input lag (60FPS-based) between 2-6 frames of input lag. Otherwise, they will have to stick to the number and build the game around that input lag.

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by Jan » February 8th, 2020, 3:03 pm

:pointup:
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by arcnl » February 8th, 2020, 3:13 pm

Hopefully no wet inputlag dreams tonight then

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Shou
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by Shou » February 8th, 2020, 4:00 pm

StarCreator wrote:
February 8th, 2020, 12:03 MP
Shou wrote:
February 8th, 2020, 9:38 am
I think you’re confused in that we developed the game?

Sending complaints to us about a game we did not develop is equal to complaining to Microsoft about the lag in a Cave 360 port.

We do not make the game.
You have an issue with the game.
Send your issue to the company who makes the game which is Tanoshimasu.
If this is the stance the company is taking then buyers should be extremely concerned. We bought the game from you, not Tanoshimasu or a third party retailer, and you hold the sole means of fixing any problem with it; Tanoshimasu isn't going to be shipping game updates to us if we ask them, you are. That you are trying to remove yourself from the equation when you are the only one that can actually do anything to solve the problem makes it sound like we are just **** out of luck.
No, we only facilitate whatever action they decide to take: ie manufacturing a new lot, version upgrade etc.

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nem
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by nem » February 8th, 2020, 4:36 pm

Well, I just sent an email to Tanoshimasu. Nothing to lose.

@Rocco, your players will also be affected by this, can you do the same, please?

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by Rocco » February 8th, 2020, 8:59 pm

nem wrote:
February 8th, 2020, 4:36 MP
Well, I just sent an email to Tanoshimasu. Nothing to lose.

@Rocco, your players will also be affected by this, can you do the same, please?
Hello

To be honest, I didn’t notice anything yet because I didn’t play it too much since it came.

I’m heavily busy building Mikado and I’ve few time for playing games .

Also my exA + Aka to Blue Type R wasn’t out of my home yet .

My setup is :

Vewlix C original

Now I fitted Seimitsu LS56 because Sanwa is worse for me .

What I felt is that is very hard for medium skilled players .

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by Aurich » February 8th, 2020, 9:05 pm

sven666 wrote:
February 8th, 2020, 12:18 MP
i wonder what is the input lag of the latest tekkens and SF games? less or more or equal?
4F. That's basically the standard these days, like it or not. It's just a matter of the base engine, both Street Fighter and Tekken use Unreal 4. They both launched with worse lag, 4F came about later after fixes to the engine. Some games are still worse, like Soul Calibur 6. The fighting game community has documented and tested it all, with published methodology and results.

The only modern fighting game I'm aware of that has been measured to only have 2F of lag is Koihime Enbu. I believe if I'm remembering correctly that Guilty Gear Xrd is 3F, but that's Unreal 3, and the new version, Strive, is Unreal 4, so I won't be surprised to find that it's measured at 4F when it's done.

If Exa can do 2F that's great, I'm all for it. But 4F is something we live with all over the place now. Not making excuses, it's just a fact.

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by Dache » February 8th, 2020, 9:40 pm

AtB is on Unity, right? I have never personally used it, but I heard it's not much better for lag unless you put some serious work into it. 2 frames from the hardware + something like 3/4 internally, maybe?

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by pubjoe » February 9th, 2020, 1:12 am

Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo on CPS2 has a 4 frame delay between button press and action startup. It’s consistent and it’s by design.

I feel in these cases that calling this input lag is a bit misleading. I always thought of it as a comparative term when measuring latency brought by an additional layer of processing. IE: Groovymame SSF2T might have 1 frame of input lag, not 5.

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nem
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by nem » February 9th, 2020, 9:20 am

It feels like I'm fighting windmills with you guys :problem:

I can fully understand you're super busy, Rocco, but since you're building what is going to be the mecca for any shmup fan in Europe, please, just send a message to Tanoshimasu that input lag matters.

As for everyone else, naturally lag matters in every game, but it's just a completely different level of importance in a danmaku.

If you check out the lasts posts in the A&B thread on here, the guys playing it are like, oh, the game's about bomb spamming. That's the casual 1CC that Zaarock was talking about. This, on the other hand, is what a scoring run looks like:



It's the first two stages played by him with "some attempt at scoring" (his words).

Pretty much all of the arcades that I've seen it in Japan are running it on a Vewlix F or C. With that setup the game has 6 frames of lag. We have it running on a CRT and a Sega JVS IO to get it down to 5. Compare that to Cave PCBs that have 2.
Last edited by nem on February 9th, 2020, 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by zak » February 9th, 2020, 10:40 am

Awesome scoring video!
@nem, let's wait and see what Tanoshimasu say. Shou has also brought it to their attention.

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by ArcadeSTG » February 9th, 2020, 11:24 am

pubjoe wrote:
February 9th, 2020, 1:12 am
Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo on CPS2 has a 4 frame delay between button press and action startup. It’s consistent and it’s by design.

I feel in these cases that calling this input lag is a bit misleading. I always thought of it as a comparative term when measuring latency brought by an additional layer of processing. IE: Groovymame SSF2T might have 1 frame of input lag, not 5.
I like the way you think. lag by design vs extra lag because of porting or emulation.

Edit: 9:16 + 3:4’s HUD would be ideal for me.
Last edited by ArcadeSTG on February 9th, 2020, 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by yosai » February 9th, 2020, 11:42 am

Thanks for the upload nem. It looks like Tanoshimasu put a fair amount of thought and effort in to the scoring mechanics. :thumbup:

Game looks so much better in 3:4 too.

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nem
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by nem » February 9th, 2020, 12:15 pm

yosai wrote:
February 9th, 2020, 11:42 am
Thanks for the upload nem.
Full credit to Zaarock for the video. It's his channel.

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by SuperPang » February 9th, 2020, 1:08 pm

Lovely stuff. Zaarock's got skills. There does seem to be a decent amount of depth to it. Reducing your bombing and dodging more as you gain confidence so you can get the 999 chains. So yeah, lag's a biggie dodging patterns like that (and that's just stage two!)

Unfortunately I can't help but think that if Tanoshimasu could've improved it, they would've. It's not like they knocked this up in five minutes. I don't think they'll get back to you and say "oops, sorry, we forgot to optimise the settings in Unity".

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by MrJBRPG » February 9th, 2020, 5:07 pm

ArcadeSTG wrote:
February 9th, 2020, 11:24 am
pubjoe wrote:
February 9th, 2020, 1:12 am
Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo on CPS2 has a 4 frame delay between button press and action startup. It’s consistent and it’s by design.

I feel in these cases that calling this input lag is a bit misleading. I always thought of it as a comparative term when measuring latency brought by an additional layer of processing. IE: Groovymame SSF2T might have 1 frame of input lag, not 5.
I like the way you think. lag by design vs extra lag because of porting or emulation.

Edit: 9:16 + 3:4’s HUD would be ideal for me.
That can also extend to the "hidden" input lag from various arcade machine components. Thanks to the newly revealed requirements of input lag target between 2-4 frames (60FPS) before publishing to Exa Arcadia, and that developer has to meet that goal through testing on different boards and optimization tools, it becomes once again trade-off between satisfying the perfect 2F lag target or allowing good moderate play with slightly varying input delay. All other input delay, through 3rd party hardware, including monitors and JVS IO boards (Sega, Taito, etc.), are outside of the developer's control.

Therefore, all developers, including Tanoshimasu, have to settle on input lag target and build games around that small margin.
nem wrote:
February 9th, 2020, 9:20 am
It feels like I'm fighting windmills with you guys :problem:

I can fully understand you're super busy, Rocco, but since you're building what is going to be the mecca for any shmup fan in Europe, please, just send a message to Tanoshimasu that input lag matters.

As for everyone else, naturally lag matters in every game, but it's just a completely different level of importance in a danmaku.

If you check out the lasts posts in the A&B thread on here, the guys playing it are like, oh, the game's about bomb spamming. That's the casual 1CC that Zaarock was talking about. This, on the other hand, is what a scoring run looks like:

https://www.hasntfiguredouthowtoembedyo ... jOcCtGUmqg

It's the first two stages played by him with "some attempt at scoring" (his words).

Pretty much all of the arcades that I've seen it in Japan are running it on a Vewlix F or C. With that setup the game has 6 frames of lag. We have it running on a CRT and a Sega JVS IO to get it down to 5. Compare that to Cave PCBs that have 2.
I personally enjoy reading all sorts of viewpoints because it helps me, and maybe others, develop a bigger and complicated picture behind development process for Exa Arcadia.

I never am affiliated with Exa Arcadia and I am not an approved developer. I am simply an ordinary arcade enthusiast who likes to delve deep into topics with passion for game development.

I also wish Tanoshimasu the best to address all concerns. If I decide to develop a game for Exa Arcadia, I too would have to think about building gameplay from the input lag target and 3rd party components that would bring the input lag higher.

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