exA-Arcadia

Coin-operated games and arcades.
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SuperPang
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by SuperPang »

So, if Unity is the main culprit, how likely are other shmup devs to use it?
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by MrJBRPG »

I do presume that the input lag many are talking about is 60 frames per second, correct? How much does the average player, not usually the technical hardcore player, can not notice lag until it is there?

Speaking about Unity, it does seem that there are some ways that users can try to minimize the input lag that people are talking about that in various forums, especially when applying that to hardwired controllers.

Some examples, if any of you are Unity developers:

https://forum.unity.com/threads/underst ... ty.762161/

https://docs.unity3d.com/ScriptReferenc ... rames.html


Regardless, there will be continued experimentation, from all of us of course, on monitor and IO board combination that can get input lag reduced.
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zak
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by zak »

I didn't notice/feel any lag on the Diamond black (shrugs).

Same with Hollow Knight (unity game), many people complained about input lag, I didn't notice it.
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by nem »

zak wrote:
January 31st, 2020, 4:47 pm
I didn't notice/feel any lag on the Diamond black (shrugs).
To be honest, I don't either. However, that doesn't mean the lag isn't there and won't screw up the performance of a more skilled player (I'm terrible). This game (and the hardware) is made for the enthusiast market, we should be expecting more.
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by SuperPang »

Lag isn't something I've ever noticed either to be honest, but then I haven't played any shmups extensively on anything but a CRT cab so lets see (if it ever arrives :problem: ). Besides, just because I can't feel it doesn't mean it isn't important because it very much is to the hardcore players that are the bread and butter of the genre.

I'd be very surprised if the hardware itself was any worse for lag than the SEGA and Taito equivalent. Hopefully Unity was a necessary evil because it's a smartphone port.
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by radiantsvgun »

zak wrote:
January 31st, 2020, 4:47 pm
I didn't notice/feel any lag on the Diamond black (shrugs).
I haven’t noticed any on mine either, but I will say the game is very difficult. My performance on this game is about the same on LCD or CRT.
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by pubjoe »

Regarding Unity: If a game is designed and tested with input lag I don’t see much of an issue. It’s when additional input lag is introduced to a game that was designed without it that it can become a problem.
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by nem »

They've mucked something up, because the mobile game apparently has very little lag.

Unfortunately, the exA support is like "zero complaints from Japanese players" and "your setup is the problem". @EOJ, any idea what's the current take on the game in Japan?

EDIT: I swear I saw a MrJBRPG post here before :think:
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by EOJ »

nem wrote:
February 2nd, 2020, 12:51 pm
@EOJ, any idea what's the current take on the game in Japan?
Most things I've read have been positive, but just modestly so (nothing too glowing out there, at least from what I've seen). Not a whole lot of talk about it on twitter, etc, though. The inability to post and share video segments and then discuss gameplay strategies is the culprit here. It is really killing the online discussion of the game, which cannot be good for its performance at arcades.
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by buffi »

nem wrote:
January 31st, 2020, 11:08 am
We just tried the hardware in a Net City yesterday. The DAC that was used is this thing. Honestly, it looked pretty bad. I can understand someone might like the cropping, but the IQ was pretty terrible. The MS2933 also had trouble syncing when the image was adjusted to the correct size. It would resync during screen transitions. Admittedly the converter is cheap, so maybe you have better luck with a more expensive one.

Also, we counted five frames of input lag on A&B on a setup that should be as lag free as possible (CRT + Sega JVS, DAC is confirmed lagless). That's not great. Two frames less in the hardware IO test. Apparently, the game is running in Unity, which I guess adds quite a lot of bloat to it.
What do you mean lagless DAC?
Its literally impossible for a DAC to not add at least one frame of lag since it needs to buffer full frames. More than that is common.
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by nem »

buffi wrote:
February 3rd, 2020, 9:27 am
What do you mean lagless DAC?
Its literally impossible for a DAC to not add at least one frame of lag since it needs to buffer full frames. More than that is common.
Except it doesn't have a frame buffer. See here:

https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=59860 (the Tendak one)

I looked into an explanation on this, and found this: [the converter] "remains synchronous the the pixelclock of the digital video inputed (no process, no frame buffer, ….). It just converts the digital pixel data to analog, nothing else." (from here)

The exA hardware can output 640 x 480.
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by buffi »

nem wrote:
February 3rd, 2020, 10:10 am
buffi wrote:
February 3rd, 2020, 9:27 am
What do you mean lagless DAC?
Its literally impossible for a DAC to not add at least one frame of lag since it needs to buffer full frames. More than that is common.
Except it doesn't have a frame buffer. See here:

https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=59860 (the Tendak one)

I looked into an explanation on this, and found this: [the converter] "remains synchronous the the pixelclock of the digital video inputed (no process, no frame buffer, ….). It just converts the digital pixel data to analog, nothing else." (from here)

The exA hardware can output 640 x 480.
Huh... I actually had no idea you could do that.
In that case ignore what I said. Cool!
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by SuperPang »

nem wrote:
February 3rd, 2020, 10:10 am
Except it doesn't have a frame buffer. See here:

https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=59860 (the Tendak one)
Are you using the Tendak one for Exa? If so I guess you're adding an HDMI-DVI adapter as well?
Interesting thread. Suggests the Benfei one "crushes blacks".
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by cools »

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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by Sumez »

radiantsvgun wrote:
January 31st, 2020, 11:32 am
Yes, there is a 16:9 and a 4:3 setting. I got my highest score so far playing it in the 4:3 mode.
Is there any chance we could see the game running on a CRT in 4:3 mode?
I think this is what people really want to see. :)
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by zak »

Sumez wrote:
February 3rd, 2020, 2:00 pm
radiantsvgun wrote:
January 31st, 2020, 11:32 am
Yes, there is a 16:9 and a 4:3 setting. I got my highest score so far playing it in the 4:3 mode.
Is there any chance we could see the game running on a CRT in 4:3 mode?
I think this is what people really want to see. :)
Already posted on the previous page.
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by nem »

SuperPang wrote:
February 3rd, 2020, 12:39 pm
Are you using the Tendak one for Exa? If so I guess you're adding an HDMI-DVI adapter as well?
Well, I'm not using anything really. We tried it once with the Tendak. However, I wasn't happy with the IQ at all. We added a HDMI-DVI adapter in the middle, yes.

I sent a message to invzim yesterday. He told me his JVS to Jamma converter the Jammafier polls at 350Hz (so 350 cycles per second), and all of the JVS IOs he has tested have answered back during one cycle (so roughly 3 milliseconds). The only exception is the Capcom Jamma to JVS IO which takes two cycles to answer back (6 ms). So we can put to rest the question if a different model JVS IO will have better results (it won't). I hope I'm not paraphrasing badly, @invzim :oops:

Anyway, it is what it is. So that MrJBRPG won't lose any sleep over this debacle, I'm not trying to say it's unplayable. If you look at the Shmup input lag database, most Switch ports have more than 5 frames of lag, and people are happily playing them. Unless you play a ton of shmups, you probably won't ever notice it (I won't). And if you do, it's up to you if you want to adapt to it. Also, we got way better results in the hardware test, so hopefully other games will perform better.
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by StarCreator »

I can't remember if I mentioned it here or not but the DVI-D port they clearly want us to use (the HDMI port next to it has a rubber plug blocking it) actually does pass HDMI audio if your passive converter populates those pins. I didn't try playing audio from both the video output and the analog RCA simultaneously.
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by mufunyo »

StarCreator wrote:
February 3rd, 2020, 5:25 pm
the DVI-D port actually does pass HDMI audio if your passive converter populates those pins.
HDMI digital audio is transmitted over the 3 main TMDS lines during video blanking; it doesn't require extra pins.
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Re: exA-Arcadia

Post by Sumez »

zak wrote:
February 3rd, 2020, 2:02 pm
Sumez wrote:
February 3rd, 2020, 2:00 pm
radiantsvgun wrote:
January 31st, 2020, 11:32 am
Yes, there is a 16:9 and a 4:3 setting. I got my highest score so far playing it in the 4:3 mode.
Is there any chance we could see the game running on a CRT in 4:3 mode?
I think this is what people really want to see. :)
Already posted on the previous page.
??
All I see is pictures of artwork shown on the screen.

Did Shou also forbid single images of the game running or something?
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