Cave's weakest title?

Coin-operated games and arcades.
User avatar
Rossyra
Supermod
Posts: 7902
Joined: February 12th, 2009, 1:24 am
Location: UK

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by Rossyra »

:eh: I like the disco one
Image
User avatar
Casey120
The Fluffer
Posts: 985
Joined: November 27th, 2009, 10:42 pm
Location: The Netherlands
eBay: Tappygielen
Initials: CVW

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by Casey120 »

Me to and Pink Sweets :problem:
User avatar
Shuurin
Please Continue...
Posts: 30
Joined: August 4th, 2010, 7:30 am
Location: SoCal
eBay: washu_3506
Initials: SHU

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by Shuurin »

Their weakest titles for me would have to be Dangun Feveron and Donpachi. Might be I'm still considered a young chap, but I just don't think Donpachi (although historic) has aged well at all. I think Dodonpachi is fantastic and Dodonpachi Doj is my most favorite cave game with Ibara & Dodonpachi Daifukatasu Black Label just under it. To flame up any more controversy out there Mushi Futari and Ketsui are pretty low on my list as well. I think higher of Pink Sweets than those two at the moment. There have been several people telling me I need to give Ketsui more time, but its play style just isn't clicking with me.
User avatar
ave
Please Continue...
Posts: 16
Joined: March 10th, 2010, 2:09 pm
Location: Canada
eBay: video-jigoku
Contact:

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by ave »

I agree with Shuurin. DonPachi was Cave's first title and it's certainly noticable. If you ask me, it's much weaker than Batsugun (which I adore!!) and just symbolizes the potential that would have been set free with its follow-up, DoDonPachi.

But since I can impossibly call it fair to call the company's first game it's worst product ever (they yet had to discover their style...), I'll say: Pink Sweets & Dangun Fever-On (letting the puzzle-games and side-productions such as Delisoba Deluxe aside).

Pink Sweets looks not too bad, I really dig the soundtrack (and only that), but it plays like a weird bizarro-world version of Ibara. I hate the idea of an aura that releases a bomb every five seconds and I hate that you mustn't collect **** if you want to proceed in the game. I really like Battle Garegga by the way, so Raizing-Hatred is not really an issue here. I just don't like the Aura-Bomb thing and the fact that you have to avoid all the fun to succeed :palm:
User avatar
skykid
1-ALL DOJ doesn't count.
Posts: 852
Joined: August 19th, 2008, 12:07 pm
Location: China

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by skykid »

Hmm, been playing Donpachi again recently and I really like it. Hard as nails by stage 4, but good solid fun nonetheless.
Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
SuperPang wrote: Where DOJ rapes you, DFK grabs your boob then runs away.
User avatar
Zoran
Please Continue...
Posts: 6
Joined: April 2nd, 2009, 11:17 am
Location: Zurich

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by Zoran »

I would say Ibara
User avatar
just4eternity
Please Continue...
Posts: 2
Joined: December 9th, 2010, 11:52 am
Location: France
eBay: eternitykun
Initials: ETR

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by just4eternity »

Donpachi without a doubt!
User avatar
markedkiller78
Pony fucker
Posts: 7580
Joined: August 17th, 2008, 6:53 pm
Location: Glasgow
eBay: markedkiller78
Initials: MAL

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by markedkiller78 »

Zoran wrote:I would say Ibara
:palm:
Image
Medal
Please Continue...
Posts: 9
Joined: May 11th, 2010, 9:29 pm
Location:

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by Medal »

Donpachi, Guwange, or Deathsmiles. I like Esprade, and it's pretty low down there, but even the boss leeching in that game doesn't compare to Guwange's. Deathsmiles is horribly paced. It's no fun until the sometime in the Castle, and then the game's already over, anyway. The scoring is boring and stuff. Donpachi's stage design and scoring mechanics are far below any of the later games. Stage 4 was put together by a crack junkie or something, no idea what was going on there.

I keep seeing Dangun Feveron in this thread, why is that :< Nobody seems to give a reason, just that the theme sucks (I think I saw one mention of the lame scoring or something, which I can understand, but is a matter of opinion). Dangun Feveron is the best-looking CAVE game, in my opinion. Amazing art, awesome backgrounds, great visual theme. The huge, multi-sprite bosses are a real treat. It's really well-designed, too :< The scoring mechanic is great and flexible, the bosses are meant to be speedkilled, not leeched, several ship types with immensely varying playstyles, etc.
Someone showed me something that was embedded in the game's code that really leads us to believe the coder was heavily under the influence of drugs, though. A paragraph or two of complete insanity, written in English, that I could only see coming from the mind of someone tripping on something. I don't have a link to it anymore, but maybe I'll find it some day.
User avatar
skykid
1-ALL DOJ doesn't count.
Posts: 852
Joined: August 19th, 2008, 12:07 pm
Location: China

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by skykid »

Medal wrote:Donpachi, Guwange, or Deathsmiles. I like Esprade, and it's pretty low down there, but even the boss leeching in that game doesn't compare to Guwange's. Deathsmiles is horribly paced. It's no fun until the sometime in the Castle, and then the game's already over, anyway. The scoring is boring and stuff. Donpachi's stage design and scoring mechanics are far below any of the later games. Stage 4 was put together by a crack junkie or something, no idea what was going on there.

I keep seeing Dangun Feveron in this thread, why is that :< Nobody seems to give a reason, just that the theme sucks (I think I saw one mention of the lame scoring or something, which I can understand, but is a matter of opinion). Dangun Feveron is the best-looking CAVE game, in my opinion. Amazing art, awesome backgrounds, great visual theme. The huge, multi-sprite bosses are a real treat. It's really well-designed, too :< The scoring mechanic is great and flexible, the bosses are meant to be speedkilled, not leeched, several ship types with immensely varying playstyles, etc.
Someone showed me something that was embedded in the game's code that really leads us to believe the coder was heavily under the influence of drugs, though. A paragraph or two of complete insanity, written in English, that I could only see coming from the mind of someone tripping on something. I don't have a link to it anymore, but maybe I'll find it some day.
Find that link, I'd love to see that. :D
I want to get more into Dangun but the only thing that puts me off is that the stupid cat has the highest scoring potential but I hate using it. It's too fast and incredibly irritating.
Not sure I agree entirely with Donpachi crit, but I do think the stage 4 design is off the wall (crazy long stage!). The scoring etc is a bit rudimentary but I like it's old-schoolness.

I'm 100% in agreement with Deathsmiles though, I've been unable to figure out the furore around that game - seemed like a step backward for the company to me. It's slow, unbalanced between the 3 difficulty stages and scoring is a frustrating task of trying to nail the 'crown reload'. Ice Palace is so much more fun that all the other stages in the game, I've no idea why the whole thing (or at least DS2) isn't like it.
Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
SuperPang wrote: Where DOJ rapes you, DFK grabs your boob then runs away.
User avatar
calium
Please Continue...
Posts: 186
Joined: May 25th, 2009, 1:17 pm
Location: Bonn, Germany
eBay: nbcrew

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by calium »

DS and DS2 are weak titles? :palm:

i would love a third DS aswell but it will probably never happen.

i vote guwange and dungan feveron as weakest titles
Insert Coin
User avatar
skykid
1-ALL DOJ doesn't count.
Posts: 852
Joined: August 19th, 2008, 12:07 pm
Location: China

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by skykid »

calium wrote:DS and DS2 are weak titles? :palm:
Weaker imo, yes. :D
Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
SuperPang wrote: Where DOJ rapes you, DFK grabs your boob then runs away.
Medal
Please Continue...
Posts: 9
Joined: May 11th, 2010, 9:29 pm
Location:

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by Medal »

skykid wrote:
Medal wrote:Donpachi, Guwange, or Deathsmiles. I like Esprade, and it's pretty low down there, but even the boss leeching in that game doesn't compare to Guwange's. Deathsmiles is horribly paced. It's no fun until the sometime in the Castle, and then the game's already over, anyway. The scoring is boring and stuff. Donpachi's stage design and scoring mechanics are far below any of the later games. Stage 4 was put together by a crack junkie or something, no idea what was going on there.

I keep seeing Dangun Feveron in this thread, why is that :< Nobody seems to give a reason, just that the theme sucks (I think I saw one mention of the lame scoring or something, which I can understand, but is a matter of opinion). Dangun Feveron is the best-looking CAVE game, in my opinion. Amazing art, awesome backgrounds, great visual theme. The huge, multi-sprite bosses are a real treat. It's really well-designed, too :< The scoring mechanic is great and flexible, the bosses are meant to be speedkilled, not leeched, several ship types with immensely varying playstyles, etc.
Someone showed me something that was embedded in the game's code that really leads us to believe the coder was heavily under the influence of drugs, though. A paragraph or two of complete insanity, written in English, that I could only see coming from the mind of someone tripping on something. I don't have a link to it anymore, but maybe I'll find it some day.
Find that link, I'd love to see that. :D
I want to get more into Dangun but the only thing that puts me off is that the stupid cat has the highest scoring potential but I hate using it. It's too fast and incredibly irritating.
Not sure I agree entirely with Donpachi crit, but I do think the stage 4 design is off the wall (crazy long stage!). The scoring etc is a bit rudimentary but I like it's old-schoolness.

I'm 100% in agreement with Deathsmiles though, I've been unable to figure out the furore around that game - seemed like a step backward for the company to me. It's slow, unbalanced between the 3 difficulty stages and scoring is a frustrating task of trying to nail the 'crown reload'. Ice Palace is so much more fun that all the other stages in the game, I've no idea why the whole thing (or at least DS2) isn't like it.
Well, keep in mind that the score ceiling for the cat is only about 1M more than for the regular ships. It's really not a huge advantage. Apart from the fact that it's always at 100% power, the cat is actually balanced. No bombs and it moves ridiculously fast, which makes things like the St4 boss really hard to dodge. I recommend trying C-Roll, B-Bomb, B-Roll, etc. if you want to get into Dangun. I'm actually more frustrated by the difference between Type A and Type B in DOJ/DOJBL than I am in Dangun. Once you learn HFD's paths with Type A, it'd be really annoying to learn anything comparable with Type B because it's so slow :P

Deathsmiles...I think people just like Deathsmiles because it's slow and easy. They can get through five or six stages without losing and they think they've accomplished something, maybe? No idea. It looks nice, and several of the stage themes are really bangin', but I don't know if that's actually what people are grabbed by. I think lots of people are into STG for different reasons than scoring players. They see something that seems unique, and that's what makes them happy to play it, as opposed to honing taste for good design of their preferred style of shooting game. Deathsmiles is filled with **** like that.
User avatar
idc
Ralf Little impersonator
Posts: 1311
Joined: October 16th, 2008, 9:17 pm
Location: Tamworth, Staffordshire
eBay: iancourt
Initials: IAN
Contact:

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by idc »

Medal wrote:Deathsmiles...I think people just like Deathsmiles because it's slow and easy. They can get through five or six stages without losing and they think they've accomplished something, maybe? No idea. It looks nice, and several of the stage themes are really bangin', but I don't know if that's actually what people are grabbed by. I think lots of people are into STG for different reasons than scoring players. They see something that seems unique, and that's what makes them happy to play it, as opposed to honing taste for good design of their preferred style of shooting game. Deathsmiles is filled with **** like that.
I've mentioned this before in the past: I'm of the opinion that manic shooters should also be enjoyed as an art form. I know good looks do not a good game make, but there is something with this particular subset of the shmup genre... It's not just the pretty graphics, it's the mathematical beauty in the bullet patterns, the unique styling and atmosphere, and themes which have not been done before.

Deathsmiles is a very nice game — probably not Cave's best, by any means — but it's well worth having as far as I am concerned. :)
ImageImageImageImage
Image
Medal
Please Continue...
Posts: 9
Joined: May 11th, 2010, 9:29 pm
Location:

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by Medal »

idc wrote:
Medal wrote:Deathsmiles...I think people just like Deathsmiles because it's slow and easy. They can get through five or six stages without losing and they think they've accomplished something, maybe? No idea. It looks nice, and several of the stage themes are really bangin', but I don't know if that's actually what people are grabbed by. I think lots of people are into STG for different reasons than scoring players. They see something that seems unique, and that's what makes them happy to play it, as opposed to honing taste for good design of their preferred style of shooting game. Deathsmiles is filled with **** like that.
I've mentioned this before in the past: I'm of the opinion that manic shooters should also be enjoyed as an art form.
I agree :)
I know good looks do not a good game make, but there is something with this particular subset of the shmup genre... It's not just the pretty graphics, it's the mathematical beauty in the bullet patterns, the unique styling and atmosphere, and themes which have not been done before.
But this is where we disagree :)
User avatar
skykid
1-ALL DOJ doesn't count.
Posts: 852
Joined: August 19th, 2008, 12:07 pm
Location: China

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by skykid »

idc wrote: Deathsmiles is a very nice game — probably not Cave's best, by any means — but it's well worth having as far as I am concerned. :)
Hey yeah, so how did you get on with it in the end, I know you were really into it when you first got it? Did you manage to figure out the crown reboost spots?
I think for me Deathsmiles scoring was a niggling issue because it's really not that straightforward like say, Ketsui or Espgaluda, and that's why I couldn't gel with it so well. The whole building crown values by using different shots was okay, but when it came down to also having to use the lock-on shot too for certain enemies that was pushing it for me, especially as it's easy to accidentally go into the power mode when using it. And the crown reloading was really so dependant on timing, it felt awful if I blew it. :palm:

Did you manage to get any tasty scores Ian?
Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
SuperPang wrote: Where DOJ rapes you, DFK grabs your boob then runs away.
User avatar
markedkiller78
Pony fucker
Posts: 7580
Joined: August 17th, 2008, 6:53 pm
Location: Glasgow
eBay: markedkiller78
Initials: MAL

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by markedkiller78 »

If you play DS for fun / scores up to 200m, it's an excellent game.

All the negatives Tom has listed about scoring are the elements that give the game some depth.

It's not hard, it is pretty and it offers novices a chance to learn the same game as experts, which was a first for cave at the time. When you play Mushi you get 3 difficulty modes, but the scoring is so different in each that the skills you learn are applicable to that mode only.

In DS you can start of easy (very easy) and slowy step up the difficulty when you feel comfortable thanks to the rank select.

It's not Caves beat game and I initially hated it, but figuring out the re-boost timings and scoring hotspots was addictive as hell. It's also forgiving (I am talking low scoring here) with re-boost as you can bomb to cut the power mode time.
Image
User avatar
Chi
Fire Extinguisher
Posts: 904
Joined: August 18th, 2008, 12:55 am
Location: Croydon, UK
Initials: CHI

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by Chi »

As Mark says, if you play DS for fun (not scoring), it's one of the most enjoyable Cave games. For me, it was extremely fun working out the scoring system and discovering the variable aspects of the game from scratch (what happens when stages are played in different orders and different difficulties) - but then again I owned it when it was less than a year old so there weren't that many spoilers on the web. Once it was discovered that scoring was so broken, most of the big guns stopped playing it.

DeathSmiles MegaBlack Label was a lot more enjoyable for me. No more milking suicide bullets or letting skulls split 1,000,000 times, Level 999 and the new extra stage :D I had to let it go as I needed the cash (and the Ketsui), but I would certainly consider re-buying it when I have money again.

Then again, I think Mushihimesama and Dodonpachi Dai-Ou-Jou aren't all that, so what do I know?

For the Progear no Arashi haters amongst you: what is it about the game you don't like? It's one of my favourites (and practically the only Cave game I can score respectably on), I love the graphics, the music, and the two-phase scoring system was great to mess around with! The joy of realising you can milk the randomly destroyable bits on stage 2, and of getting a continuous diamond stream from bullets for a couple of seconds just before the stage 1 boss :D
"TO THE untrained eye Christian Cooper might have been stamping out a small fire " - The Times, 7th Feb, 2004
User avatar
skykid
1-ALL DOJ doesn't count.
Posts: 852
Joined: August 19th, 2008, 12:07 pm
Location: China

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by skykid »

markedkiller78 wrote: It's not Caves beat game and I initially hated it, but figuring out the re-boost timings and scoring hotspots was addictive as hell. It's also forgiving (I am talking low scoring here) with re-boost as you can bomb to cut the power mode time.
I can't play on anything except LV.2 rank otherwise it's too easy and not enough scoring opportunity, but I can't play level 3's or 999's because they're stupidly tough.
Try as I might though, DS is one game where I can't ignore scoring - if you're playing for a clear only then there's not enough to it.
Chi leant me his DS MBL and I cleared the game with three of the characters in the first week or so. I had no idea about scoring as it was the first time I'd played DS properly and I really enjoyed it. Then I sat down to learn the scoring and watched some vids on the crown reload spots and the whole experience became a bit more frustrating.

Anyway, I've got the port (even thought BL is broken :( ) so when I finally get my 360 in my cab I'll go back to DS again to try to milk those crowns and see if I can find the love. :)

Chi wrote: For the Progear no Arashi haters amongst you: what is it about the game you don't like? It's one of my favourites (and practically the only Cave game I can score respectably on), I love the graphics, the music, and the two-phase scoring system was great to mess around with! The joy of realising you can milk the randomly destroyable bits on stage 2, and of getting a continuous diamond stream from bullets for a couple of seconds just before the stage 1 boss :D
Agree with this, the scoring system is soooo much fun in Progear. You're always finding new ways to cash in the big money. :D
Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
SuperPang wrote: Where DOJ rapes you, DFK grabs your boob then runs away.
User avatar
cools
Armed Police Buttrider
Posts: 13457
Joined: August 17th, 2008, 4:49 pm
Location: Wales, United Kingdom
eBay: hordarian
Initials: CLS

Re: Cave's weakest title?

Post by cools »

I'd quite like to spend some serious time with DS (or MBL) if anyone has one for sale. It's never clicked with me, but certain other titles (Ibara) were less than immediate and they're now firm favourites.

Dangun is a lot of fun on PCB. Even survival gets tough after L3 there's such a crazy amount of stuff going on.
Image
Post Reply