GTI Club: Supermini Festa

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russ
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GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by russ » May 14th, 2010, 11:22 am

Has anyone else played this and found that the blur of the lcd monitor ruined play? I enjoyed the original but found the blur in tight corners distracting and impossible to work out what was going on. Do operators get a choice in the monitor? the cabinet looked the real thing and brand new

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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by uncletom » May 18th, 2010, 8:46 pm

I played the SMF when I was in Dublin last fall. The game seems really nice, but as with all LCD-nonsense nowadays the game does get ruined by it.

My wish would be to simply detroy all LCD monitors and any kinds of flat-type displays, and start manufacturing real CRT based monitors again. The only real monitor is a CRT-monitor, preferable made in Japan by Nanao/Eizo or Toshiba themselves. I miss the good old times *so much*! How could we sink into this hell hole called LCD and 'flat-screen'? It's so perverted and so bad it can't pass any inspection involving fast panning and animation. It's like a nightmare come true.

I am so happy that I'm not alone. Now I feel that there are more people out there hating the LCD-madness that has invaded our gaming culture.

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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by uncletom » May 18th, 2010, 8:58 pm

.. unless ofcourse you meant that the game doesn't have a constant frame rate, which I also find a bit off regarding this otherwise perfect driving game. The LCD does sort of smear the picture when you pan fast, or animate something fast. But then there is the frames jerking issue which, sadly, hasn't got anything to do with the screen but rather with the PC that runs the game. (.. yes it's PC) Due to shortage in the GPU or CPU, the game can lagg behind some when detailes get too many. This is especially noticable in all newer games, also from Sega and Namco, that uses PC- based hardware.

Because PC-based hardware isn't the optimal hardware to present games on, even though the games run well on fast CPUs, the game houses have chosen it because it's the most available and cheapest hardware to get today. An old MAC would run games more smoothly (architecturewise), but Intel has won over Motorola and so we're now stuck with *ladie's PC-&-LCD stuff* beyond rescue.

Damn I love GTI Club SMF. It hurts so to see it presented in such a cheap way!

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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by uncletom » May 18th, 2010, 9:12 pm

Have you noticed any other games lagging some?

I've noticed certain lags, although pretty small ones nevertheless it's there, in games like Afterburner Climax and Initial D4 (during attraction sequence actually).

And every time I go pass the Rizing Storm, as people play I notice how this game isn't at all a stable 60 fps like my good old favourites. Nah, there's so much action you couldn't tell the difference if it is the end of the world or simple CPU-lagging. The game is so full of details and moving objects tossed in every direction you just stand amazed, don't know what to look at! How could you notice a petty lagging!? And that's the point; overdo the graphics, stuff the game with as much stuff as RAM can hold and forget about the lagging. It's not about smooth animation, texture resolutions or amount of polygons anymore. It's about raw, realistic and 'immersive' action the player will never forget. Just keep feeding your coins into the slot and as long as the gun is kicking and you go deaf by the time your pockets are empty, the player is satisfied,... or rather stunned.

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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by russ » May 21st, 2010, 12:30 pm

uncletom wrote:.. unless ofcourse you meant that the game doesn't have a constant frame rate, which I also find a bit off regarding this otherwise perfect driving game. The LCD does sort of smear the picture when you pan fast, or animate something fast. But then there is the frames jerking issue which, sadly, hasn't got anything to do with the screen but rather with the PC that runs the game. (.. yes it's PC) Due to shortage in the GPU or CPU, the game can lagg behind some when detailes get too many. This is especially noticable in all newer games, also from Sega and Namco, that uses PC- based hardware.

Because PC-based hardware isn't the optimal hardware to present games on, even though the games run well on fast CPUs, the game houses have chosen it because it's the most available and cheapest hardware to get today. An old MAC would run games more smoothly (architecturewise), but Intel has won over Motorola and so we're now stuck with *ladie's PC-&-LCD stuff* beyond rescue.

Damn I love GTI Club SMF. It hurts so to see it presented in such a cheap way!
The blur was what messed it up for me! I only played it once and didn't notice any frame rate issues. I am used to slow down in arcade games (double dragon springs to mind) but i like you would probably love it to death without the crappy lcd.

Just checked system 16, OMFG!

CPU : Pentium4 2.4BG
RAM : DDR2100 256MB
VGA : NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440-8X AGP
HDD : IDE 60GB
O/S : WindowsXP Embbeded
Control : I/O Control PCB connected by USB

Was this 2008 or 1998?

Pc hardware aint expensive compared to the sell price of the machines

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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by uncletom » May 21st, 2010, 1:50 pm

Profit is the word. Manufacture the game as cheaply as possible, and sell it for as much as possible. That's good bussiness. Although I would guess that to manufacture old PC parts today would cost more than just using the mainstream stuff in the shops today. I mean, how many hundreds of percents do the game makers want to make??

Well, I too like the GTI Club SMF. Don't get me wrong. But the game has only 30 fps which is a big shame considering it's 2010 now, and as you can see the system is more or less stoneage.

I also love the GTI Club original from 1996. That too only runs at 30 fps. I normally hate polygon games not running at 60 fps, with the exeptions of STUN Runner, 18 Wheeler and Route 66, GTI Club (and SMF) and various innovatite and weird polygon games by Konami.

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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by uncletom » May 21st, 2010, 1:53 pm

.. haha.. and oh yes; I remember Double Dragon, horrible game. But I respect your taste anyway. You're a Double Dragon type of guy, and I'm a Black Tiger type of guy.

One other game I do love very much, although its inconsistent frame rate, is Metal Slug.

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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by dieKatze88 » May 21st, 2010, 4:57 pm

russ wrote:
uncletom wrote:.. unless ofcourse you meant that the game doesn't have a constant frame rate, which I also find a bit off regarding this otherwise perfect driving game. The LCD does sort of smear the picture when you pan fast, or animate something fast. But then there is the frames jerking issue which, sadly, hasn't got anything to do with the screen but rather with the PC that runs the game. (.. yes it's PC) Due to shortage in the GPU or CPU, the game can lagg behind some when detailes get too many. This is especially noticable in all newer games, also from Sega and Namco, that uses PC- based hardware.

Because PC-based hardware isn't the optimal hardware to present games on, even though the games run well on fast CPUs, the game houses have chosen it because it's the most available and cheapest hardware to get today. An old MAC would run games more smoothly (architecturewise), but Intel has won over Motorola and so we're now stuck with *ladie's PC-&-LCD stuff* beyond rescue.

Damn I love GTI Club SMF. It hurts so to see it presented in such a cheap way!
The blur was what messed it up for me! I only played it once and didn't notice any frame rate issues. I am used to slow down in arcade games (double dragon springs to mind) but i like you would probably love it to death without the crappy lcd.

Just checked system 16, OMFG!

CPU : Pentium4 2.4BG
RAM : DDR2100 256MB
VGA : NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440-8X AGP
HDD : IDE 60GB
O/S : WindowsXP Embbeded
Control : I/O Control PCB connected by USB

Was this 2008 or 1998?

Pc hardware aint expensive compared to the sell price of the machines
This information is inaccurate. It likely runs on something similar to the BemaniPC Type 3 (Like Otomedius does) which is much more capable hardware.

Also, is it just me or are you guys just really jaded by experiences with bad LCDs? I have 2 1080p displays on my desk that don't exhibit any blur, motion delay, or poor picture at low resolutions.

Also, a G5 Macintosh will NEVER outrun a MODERN PC at executing game software, as it is bus limited. If you buy a Radeon HD 3000 or 4000 series chip on a AGP or PCI bus, you won't get any better performance than a Radeon X1300 or higher on the same bus, the reason for this is simply data transfer, there isn't sufficient bandwidth on the PCI or AGP bus to move all that data. The older PowerMacs will suffer from this problem. In addition, the G5 chip isn't as powerful as its made out to be, the reason game consoles run better than PCs is because of a lack of software running in the background, its minimal software at its worst (Xbox 360, Playstation 3) or none in other situations (Nintendo Wii, Nintendo DS, Sony Playstation Portable), Konami builds out these PCs with Windows XP Embedded which provides a similar structure, however, they need large amounts of dependencies for parts of the eAmusement system, which (When on Windows, at least) runs on .Net. These considerations need to be made, but the fact is, if you copy the system requirements for a Konami PC based game exactly, you will never run the game with a full OS install, I've found that you have to *DOUBLE* the system requirements to keep up with the large amount of garbage running in the background of modern Windows Operating systems.
I stream myself playing Otomedius when I get bored
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/otomedius" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by uncletom » May 21st, 2010, 5:33 pm

Ok, about my slight exaggetarion that MAC runs games better than PC, sorry about that. MAC is dead, it's all ''PC'' nowadays anyway, even that white nice looking stuff they call Macintosh today. However, MAC architecture *was* better years ago when the battle between these platforms was on.

Nevermind.

About LCDs though, it's a crappy technology for games anyway you turn it. You will never ever get a flat panel to outperform a good CRT monitor. As you say, LCDs today are good. Konami used cheap and bad LCDs in their games, ofcourse. With their astronomical profit margin they have to! If I were the boss of Konami, I would put high quality O-LEDs in the machines. Nothing less. That is if I couldn't convice Toshiba to start the CRT manufacturing again.

And yes: "... you have to *DOUBLE* the system requirements to keep up with the large amount of garbage running in the background of modern Windows Operating systems"

- That I really understand. That is why I use Windows XP SP2 still today, and I try to minimize my background apps. I do run a simple http-server and I've always have Skype2.5 on. And games run smooth on my PC, although they're not the newest games, I play mostly Far Cry, Quake 4 and stuff like that.

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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by dieKatze88 » May 21st, 2010, 9:42 pm

uncletom wrote:Ok, about my slight exaggetarion that MAC runs games better than PC, sorry about that. MAC is dead, it's all ''PC'' nowadays anyway, even that white nice looking stuff they call Macintosh today. However, MAC architecture *was* better years ago when the battle between these platforms was on.

Nevermind.

About LCDs though, it's a crappy technology for games anyway you turn it. You will never ever get a flat panel to outperform a good CRT monitor. As you say, LCDs today are good. Konami used cheap and bad LCDs in their games, ofcourse. With their astronomical profit margin they have to! If I were the boss of Konami, I would put high quality O-LEDs in the machines. Nothing less. That is if I couldn't convice Toshiba to start the CRT manufacturing again.

And yes: "... you have to *DOUBLE* the system requirements to keep up with the large amount of garbage running in the background of modern Windows Operating systems"

- That I really understand. That is why I use Windows XP SP2 still today, and I try to minimize my background apps. I do run a simple http-server and I've always have Skype2.5 on. And games run smooth on my PC, although they're not the newest games, I play mostly Far Cry, Quake 4 and stuff like that.
Fair, but the reason the mac architecture was so much better back then was 64 bit computing, now that x86 is doing that, and really really well, IBM/Toshiba/Motorola (Depending on your favorite flavor of PowerPC chips) have lost the fight. The reason those chips are in game consoles today is because they're cheaper in bulk than Intel's latest stock.

Konami doesn't use cheap LCDs in all their games, which is what gets me. the IIDX LCDs are quite nice, and don't have much blur at all (you know, beyond what the astronomical speed at which that game does things provides).

I find 64 bit to be a huge preformance boost. Once I was able to get a Core 2 Duo chip, I went 64 bit on Windows Vista, its actually faster, but that's another thread. Although for 32 bit speed you have to do XP (seeing as XP 64 has about the same driver support for anything as Windows 3.11 had for sound cards). **** I'm still playing Team Fortress 2, My machine *CRUSHES* that game, but hey.
I stream myself playing Otomedius when I get bored
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/otomedius" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by uncletom » May 21st, 2010, 10:01 pm

You really seem to know your way around computers and OSes.

About what LCDs Konami use; to be honest I really have no clue about the type or quality. They are quite large so they can't be very cheap. I did actually take a good shot of it ... Image

The LCD display seems very bright and has got good color intensity. But still it's a LCD with everything that comes with it like viewing angle limitations being my biggest problem. The lagging, nowadays, can be minimized to perhaps 1ms. But as long as there are CRTs available, even if only in my local garbage disposal terminal, may fav displays will always be CRT based.

I am currently googling for an operator's manual for the GTI Club SMF.

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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by dieKatze88 » May 22nd, 2010, 1:27 am

uncletom wrote:You really seem to know your way around computers and OSes.

About what LCDs Konami use; to be honest I really have no clue about the type or quality. They are quite large so they can't be very cheap. I did actually take a good shot of it ... Image

The LCD display seems very bright and has got good color intensity. But still it's a LCD with everything that comes with it like viewing angle limitations being my biggest problem. The lagging, nowadays, can be minimized to perhaps 1ms. But as long as there are CRTs available, even if only in my local garbage disposal terminal, may fav displays will always be CRT based.

I am currently googling for an operator's manual for the GTI Club SMF.
Cheap piece of ****, from what I can see here. First of all, the pixel density is REALLY low there, and the resolution doesn't look terribly high. That makes the frame rate issues all the more puzzling, as if it runs of BemaniPC Type 3 (As many of Konami's latest titles do) then it is to be believed that at about 720p (from what I can gleam from that picture) that this game is outputting 389120 less pixels than Otomedius, which has a VERY high polygon count (despite certian parts of the game clearly having overly low polygon counts, the over all polygon count is high) this seems to be lower either way. One thing that might be killing it is the constant camera changes (which Otomedius lacks for obvious reasons) combined with the higher speed of gameplay.

That LCD is such a piece of crap though, it sure looks it anyway. Its bright but it looks to have some very bad bleeding issues, combined with the low pixel density and low resolution creates super large pixels (in comparison to say, a 15 inch touch screen display that Otomedius uses, or the 1080p displays that beatmania IIDX uses for no good reason - that game still runs at VGA) that look horrible, but this is clearly a low quality display.

However, bear in mind, you are in Europe, the place where Konami sends all of its ****. You guys got a modified version of Nemesis, to test for bugs in Gradius. You guys got several iterations of Dancing Stage that were as follows: The software test for bugs in DDR MAX (Dance Dance Revolution 6th mix), a hardware test for Bemani Python II (Playstation 2 based, Dancing Stage Fever), and eventually the PC based **** that Dance Dance Revolution X exists on. Those are just some examples I am fully aware happened, and this probably isn't an isolated incident. Theres a very likely chance that upon seeing the low quality of these LCDs, rather than bin them, Konami just sent them to Europe. They do that from time to time.

Viewing angle isn't always a issue anymore. Decently cheap displays are available now with a 170+ degree viewing angle, which is WAY more than anybody needs for an arcade machine.
I stream myself playing Otomedius when I get bored
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/otomedius" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by uncletom » May 22nd, 2010, 9:11 am

I see. So the LCD screen is not of very good quality then. But consider that my camera is also not the best one possible. It's a Canon Ixus70 so there are ofcourse certain side effects.

I know very little about dancing games but as you mention konami's **** of games I instantly notice the cheap Happ/Suzo shifters and steering wheels. Look:
Image

Unlike the Japanese-type, here:
Image

Look at steering wheels, pedals, .. All custom made for Supermini Festa. And compare it to what we have got in Europe. That is an outrage, not acceptable. But I can imagine it saves the *local Konami agent* (I think Konami Europe?) some money. Most cabinets today, also Sega's, are built in Europe, so the LCD screens are probable also some cheaper EU-trash.

One interesting thing about the screens though, look at the angle they have used. Why did they put them in such inclining position?

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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by uncletom » May 22nd, 2010, 9:28 am

I mean, the game is *so fantastic*, and I really don't mean to put it down one bit. I am just a little frustrated about the fact that Konami, having made such a super game, not making the best of it. Why not making it go 60fps? I remember when I first saw GTI Club in 1997, I was amazed about its scenery, the cars, the fun of the game play. But what put me off, even at that time, was its low fps. It only does 30 fps! Now, ofcourse I will not allow myself to dis the game only because of that. But today, long after 1997, Konami still does it in 30fps, even though there's hardware to easilly do it 60.

Personally I am just waiting for the SMF to get 'old' so that I can buy the board and play it in one of my driving rigs here at home, on a CRT. I will always love Konami for everything good they've done, and continue to look through my fingers regarding the not so good things.

I think that this LCD problem is global. I haven't really seen a game out there with a *good* LCD or plasma. Take Let's Go Jungle for example. We have it here in Spinner's Arcade at Heron City, and when this game was introduced I remember looking at the screen amazed about the bright and sharp picture. But last fall I started to notice how the screen on Let's Go Jungle was becoming greenish. And today there's only a green/yellow mess on there!? Also the Sega Rally 3 using DLP projectors/backprojected has got totally dim pictures in all the four units. And these are quite new games if you compare them to Daytona 2, Sega Rally 2 and others in the same arcade. The old Sega games use Nanao 29" CRT screens and these look almost as good as they did 10 years ago. Now *that's quality*, that's Japanese pride for you!

I miss the good old days, because they were *really good*.

(By the way, can anybody confirm the frame rate in GTI Club Supermini Festa please? Is it 30 fps or not? I'm sure there were frame rate issues, but if they were irregular or a constant 30 I cannot really remember.)

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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by russ » May 22nd, 2010, 9:46 am

I have no problem with good lcd. I have a Bravia telly and a 23" lcd monitor. Both are mostly fine. Interestingly? I have a Naomi cab and have hooked up my Xbox 360, i have got to say while the picture isn't quite as technically good it has a quality to it i really like.

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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by andygeezer » May 22nd, 2010, 9:52 am

It's Konami!!!

Anyway I need to region change one to UK, anyone who knows anything about Konami hardware and region - MP me, I reckon it is going to be a little surfacr mount sucker..
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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by russ » May 22nd, 2010, 10:16 am

dieKatze88 wrote:
if you copy the system requirements for a Konami PC based game exactly, you will never run the game with a full OS install, I've found that you have to *DOUBLE* the system requirements to keep up with the large amount of garbage running in the background of modern Windows Operating systems.

Got to dispute that! blazeblue continuum shift (loader) runs fine ;) Andy will know what hardware he runs his PC based arcade games on (check his Youtube page)

These specs aint much better.


BEMANI PC TYPE 3 VARIANT 3

CPU : Celeron M 1.5Ghz
RAM : DDR2700 512MB
VGA : Unknown ATI
Audio : Realtek AC'97
HDD : SATA 80GB 3.5"
O/S : WindowsXP Embbeded
Control : I/O Control PCB connected by USB

Not sure what you mean Andy? who said it wasn't Konami?

It would be great to get back to the Model 3 days when nothing in the home could compete

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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by dieKatze88 » May 22nd, 2010, 1:05 pm

russ wrote:
dieKatze88 wrote:
if you copy the system requirements for a Konami PC based game exactly, you will never run the game with a full OS install, I've found that you have to *DOUBLE* the system requirements to keep up with the large amount of garbage running in the background of modern Windows Operating systems.

Got to dispute that! blazeblue continuum shift (loader) runs fine ;) Andy will know what hardware he runs his PC based arcade games on (check his Youtube page)

These specs aint much better.


BEMANI PC TYPE 3 VARIANT 3

CPU : Celeron M 1.5Ghz
RAM : DDR2700 512MB
VGA : Unknown ATI
Audio : Realtek AC'97
HDD : SATA 80GB 3.5"
O/S : WindowsXP Embbeded
Control : I/O Control PCB connected by USB

Not sure what you mean Andy? who said it wasn't Konami?

It would be great to get back to the Model 3 days when nothing in the home could compete
Actually that stems from those being somewhat wrong too. That should be a Pentium M 1.8, a Radeon X1300 with 256, and a gig of DDR 400

-_-
I stream myself playing Otomedius when I get bored
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/otomedius" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by uncletom » May 22nd, 2010, 1:42 pm

Hehe.. Hello Andy! "It's Konami". Yes. Never trust them. At times they manage to impress the wits off me, other times I just couldn't care less. Like with all those dancing games today.

I have taken the liberty of showing a couple of clips here, because I'm not really sure that GTI Club SMF really is 30fps. It could very well be 60. But I do remember for certain that I didn't like the 'smoothness', actually its lack of smoothness when driving. The game does sync, otherwise there would be tearings and there are none. But still there's this really bad smearing in anything fast panning or moving that just hurts my eyes. Could that be the LCD effects, or this thing called double/triple buffering? - I am ofcourse spoiled rotten by Sega and their super smooth racers.

Pehaps youtube clips aren't the best examples to use, but I have no other examples so these will have to do. GTI Club SMF is a fast moving game, thus it really needs to have a good fps. 30 fps would cut it, just like the original from 1996 has 30. But look at the movies please.

http://hornet.homeftp.net/GTIClubSMF_Italy.mp4"
http://hornet.homeftp.net/GTIClubSMF_London.flv"

Then, is it possible that Konami use several revisions of a system for a game? Could GTI Club SMF be shipped on various revisions of Konami's hardware, perhaps with different CPU or graphic performance properties? Like *faster* or *slower* specs? I wouldn't be surprised, it's just a "PC" with a dongle and IO-pcb, right?

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Re: GTI Club: Supermini Festa

Post by dieKatze88 » May 22nd, 2010, 3:50 pm

uncletom wrote:Hehe.. Hello Andy! "It's Konami". Yes. Never trust them. At times they manage to impress the wits off me, other times I just couldn't care less. Like with all those dancing games today.

I have taken the liberty of showing a couple of clips here, because I'm not really sure that GTI Club SMF really is 30fps. It could very well be 60. But I do remember for certain that I didn't like the 'smoothness', actually its lack of smoothness when driving. The game does sync, otherwise there would be tearings and there are none. But still there's this really bad smearing in anything fast panning or moving that just hurts my eyes. Could that be the LCD effects, or this thing called double/triple buffering? - I am ofcourse spoiled rotten by Sega and their super smooth racers.

Pehaps youtube clips aren't the best examples to use, but I have no other examples so these will have to do. GTI Club SMF is a fast moving game, thus it really needs to have a good fps. 30 fps would cut it, just like the original from 1996 has 30. But look at the movies please.

http://hornet.homeftp.net/GTIClubSMF_Italy.mp4"
http://hornet.homeftp.net/GTIClubSMF_London.flv"

Then, is it possible that Konami use several revisions of a system for a game? Could GTI Club SMF be shipped on various revisions of Konami's hardware, perhaps with different CPU or graphic performance properties? Like *faster* or *slower* specs? I wouldn't be surprised, it's just a "PC" with a dongle and IO-pcb, right?
Typically not the case for Konami, they have been known to hold down the specs on their machines pretty tight, often overshooting specs for a few years to only require upgrades every 3 or 4 versions or so (at least for the music games) in addition, windows XP embedded has no way of modifying its drivers after being deployed usually, so its in Konami's benefit to have ONE hardware spec on which ONE (or more, you know, depending) games runs on. Makes repairs easier.

I have a feeling its more of the monitors, because the framerate looks pretty solid to me in the videos
I stream myself playing Otomedius when I get bored
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/otomedius" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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