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Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: June 19th, 2011, 3:34 pm
by Lettuce
Have any of you guys been playing around with the new HLSL option in the latest version of mame that introduces scanlines?? Also i might get myself one of those SLG3000 scanline generator devices they look the ****.........

http://www.arcadeforge.de/?page_id=745"

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: June 20th, 2011, 11:20 am
by pubjoe
I haven't tried it yet but it looks great. Just what mame needs. An overlay alone was never going to be enough to be honest.
cools wrote:Until we get high enough resolution LCDs to simulate a true CRT shadowmask...
It's funny, I was thinking about this the other day and how this is never going to happen. Just like in print, there's not much reason for detail to get any sharper beyond about 300dpi. But 300dpi just isn't enough to anywhere near simulate a true shadowmask. Over 300dpi is pretty much humanly indistinguishable for text, shapes and photos, but fine repeat patterns will still suffer visible moire type problems unless you go a hell of a lot higher. But we never will as it'll just never be worthwhile.

The best thing is to create an effect with the screens available today. They're already less than one factor away from 300dpi, so they're not going to suddenly get that much more capable. Overlays alone just aren't enough. We need help from dynamic luminous pixel effects (and stuff). :think:

HLSL looks excellent. :awe:

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: June 20th, 2011, 11:31 am
by cools
It does, and it's vastly superior to what was achievable beforehand. My interest in MAME has waned significantly though so I really cannot be bothered playing around with it. Framerate judder/tearing/lag differences from running on a PCB are impossible to get away from.

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: June 20th, 2011, 10:09 pm
by Lettuce
pubjoe wrote:I haven't tried it yet but it looks great. Just what mame needs. An overlay alone was never going to be enough to be honest.
cools wrote:Until we get high enough resolution LCDs to simulate a true CRT shadowmask...
It's funny, I was thinking about this the other day and how this is never going to happen. Just like in print, there's not much reason for detail to get any sharper beyond about 300dpi. But 300dpi just isn't enough to anywhere near simulate a true shadowmask. Over 300dpi is pretty much humanly indistinguishable for text, shapes and photos, but fine repeat patterns will still suffer visible moire type problems unless you go a hell of a lot higher. But we never will as it'll just never be worthwhile.

The best thing is to create an effect with the screens available today. They're already less than one factor away from 300dpi, so they're not going to suddenly get that much more capable. Overlays alone just aren't enough. We need help from dynamic luminous pixel effects (and stuff). :think:

HLSL looks excellent. :awe:
Anyone have any settings to share for a decent HLSL setup??
cools wrote:It does, and it's vastly superior to what was achievable beforehand. My interest in MAME has waned significantly though so I really cannot be bothered playing around with it. Framerate judder/tearing/lag differences from running on a PCB are impossible to get away from.
Have you tried GroovyMame?, it address 99% of the problems you listed cools!

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: June 20th, 2011, 10:12 pm
by pubjoe
HLSL in action:

Nicked from Gardhul on this thread (where he also lists his settings, Lettuce).

Click for full size...

Image

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: June 25th, 2011, 11:09 am
by fagin
That filter setting is aweful. Apart from the pincushion / curvature / covergence (which I can't understand for the life of me why you would want to emulate), if my monitor looked that bad with the other settings I would smash it to bits!!!

IMO some people haven't got a clue what the video image should look like on a CRT.

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: June 25th, 2011, 11:11 am
by cools
Lettuce wrote:
cools wrote:It does, and it's vastly superior to what was achievable beforehand. My interest in MAME has waned significantly though so I really cannot be bothered playing around with it. Framerate judder/tearing/lag differences from running on a PCB are impossible to get away from.
Have you tried GroovyMame?, it address 99% of the problems you listed cools!
It's that 1% that is so significant :)

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: June 29th, 2011, 11:30 pm
by anarkhy
fagin wrote:That filter setting is aweful. Apart from the pincushion / curvature / covergence (which I can't understand for the life of me why you would want to emulate), if my monitor looked that bad with the other settings I would smash it to bits!!!

IMO some people haven't got a clue what the video image should look like on a CRT.
that curvature was present on older low end arcade machines. yes they sucked at the time.

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: June 30th, 2011, 4:06 pm
by pubjoe
Graphics were designed for the monitors of the time though. Some games look terrible when a perfectly crisp display exposes all elements of artwork that previously were not visible - such as gradients created with a small palette, or single pixel lights which had a nice glowing effect on the old "low-end" CRTs, or pixel outlines that bleed into the colour next door. Graphic designers were very aware of the quirks of the displays that would display their artwork. Hence why I much prefer to play the old games on a CRT and I am all for the effort to emulate that on the better screens of today. Especially as CRTs are dying out quickly.

R-Type springs to mind as a clear example. Especially when the level 1 space station background fades in. It looks **** on a modern clear monitor.

On the other hand. A game like Street Fighter Alpha 3, even though it's still low res, with it's bold sprites, I personally really like the look of the graphics nude and unfiltered on a nice crisp modern screen.

...Plus there's always the nostalgia factor.

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: June 30th, 2011, 5:55 pm
by pubjoe
ERm. Not quite sure why I suddenly decided to say all that earlier. :?

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: August 27th, 2011, 5:09 am
by niconiconico
Anyone knows what the f*** is going on with my display after enabling hlsl?

Image

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: August 27th, 2011, 9:07 am
by niconiconico
And in waiting for an answer to the above, let me introduce the effect i am using, drawn with Paint and PicPick:

An example here: http://i40.servimg.com/u/f40/11/20/39/11/image_14.jpg"

Due to a poor upload you can see some "fake" brown midlines, which are totally out of the real result, and i was unable to upload more screens (dunno why :?).

The effect is shown in 1920x1080, with brightness at 0.900 and contrast at 1.000, and is attached in this post.

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: September 3rd, 2011, 3:32 pm
by Lettuce
Im unable to see the attached file niconiconico??

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: September 4th, 2011, 1:06 pm
by niconiconico
The smaaaaaaaaaaaaaall dot you see, is the image (but when you zoom into it you will see it clearly) :)

Right click on it > view image > right click > save as.

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: December 5th, 2011, 1:15 am
by Beaps
What if you have an LCD screen that you have rotated, any ideas of what I could use for that?

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: December 5th, 2011, 1:22 am
by davewellington
What's the issue?

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: December 5th, 2011, 1:24 am
by Korszca
To get scanlines? The same thing you'd use if your LCD wasn't rotated.

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: December 5th, 2011, 1:38 am
by Beaps
It don't look quite right tho imo

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: December 5th, 2011, 1:39 am
by davewellington
err, so what's the issue? Are you using HLSL?

Re: MAME scanline/shadowmask simulation

Posted: December 5th, 2011, 1:40 am
by Korszca
Beaps wrote:It don't look quite right tho imo
You know scanlines rotate too when you rotate the monitor, right?