Sanwa 29E31S differences in cap values

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Shadolf
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Sanwa 29E31S differences in cap values

Post by Shadolf »

I bought a cap kit for a 29E31S-B a few month ago and have done the chassis today.
While soldering I noticed that some of the caps of the kit have other values than the caps on my chassis.
I asked the seller about this, and he said that he has sold this kit about 100 times and the values have to be right until I have a greatly revised board.
So I thought maybe it´s because I have a "B" in the number and the kit is only for a 29S31S.
Does anyone know if there are great differences in revisons or something?
The values I´m talking about are:
Chassis/Cap Kit:
C310 100uF 35V / 100uF 10V
C320 0.01uF 50V / 100uF 25V
C433 33uF 160V / 47uF 250V
C840 1000uF 6.3V / 100uF 16V
I´m concerned about the different capacities in some caps and the lower voltage value.
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nem
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Re: Sanwa 29E31S differences in cap values

Post by nem »

I'm looking at a 'normal' 29E31S right now

C310 100uf 35V
C320 10uf 50V (you sure about yours?)
C840 1000uf 10V

Couldn't find C433 on a quick look. I would say the cap kit is junk.
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Re: Sanwa 29E31S differences in cap values

Post by grantspain »

put in what came out
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Re: Sanwa 29E31S differences in cap values

Post by Shadolf »

nem wrote:I'm looking at a 'normal' 29E31S right now

C310 100uf 35V
C320 10uf 50V (you sure about yours?)
C840 1000uf 10V

Couldn't find C433 on a quick look. I would say the cap kit is junk.
I have my values out of the 29E31S-B service manual. Checked the values on the chassis right now and they are as stated in my post.
C320 is a small flat green one with the code 103J100, so I think 0.01uF or 10nF is right (10pF x 10^3).

What also was a little strange is, C4A7 is a 25V according to the service manual. When I put that one from the chassis, it had 50V printed on.
The C4A7 from the cap kit has the same value as in the manual.

@grantspain:
I exchanged only the caps with correct values and those with voltages a little over the original values.
Haven´t tested the chassis yet, since I thought I should ask here and maybe put the remaining ones in, when they are fine.
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Re: Sanwa 29E31S differences in cap values

Post by Londoncalling »

I've had chassis that are the same model number with different caps and I've always just replaced them with exactly what came out of the chassis I'm working on. Just make sure that they are the original factory installed caps.
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Re: Sanwa 29E31S differences in cap values

Post by NoAffinity »

You can replace a cap with one that has a greater voltage rating, but the capacitance must match identically. That explains C4A7, but doesn't appear to help with the other caps you listed above.

Digi-key is a great source for one-off cap ordering, with an easy to use web site. Not sure what the cost of shipping is like, if the shipment is going outside the US, and you may have a similar supplier locally, but thought them worth mentioning as a good source for one-off ordering and piecing together your own cap kits. It might be worth e-mailing them to see what the cost of shipping would be like.

http://www.digikey.com/products/capacitors/en

I also like putting my own cap kits together from their site. The Nichicon brand are typically higher quality than what most pre-made cap kits include.
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Re: Sanwa 29E31S differences in cap values

Post by Shadolf »

Thanks a lot.
Does someone know a supplier in europe, like the one mentioned above, were I could get single caps?
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Re: Sanwa 29E31S differences in cap values

Post by Asayuki »

Having to match the capacitance values is not 100% true, at least not as strict as a dogma. Expecially the power supply filtering ones.
Of course you need to be knowledgeable in electronics to evaluate on a case by case basis...
With regard to Digikey, shipment is free above orders in value of 50 euros + vat. Otherwise you get charged 18 euros.
With regard to a different supplier, try tme.eu which is based in Poland; it's much cheaper.

I hope this helps.
My 15kHz cabinet Peplos will never power up, with any item, and I am quite proud of that.
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Re: Sanwa 29E31S differences in cap values

Post by NoAffinity »

Asayuki wrote:Having to match the capacitance values is not 100% true, at least not as strict as a dogma. Expecially the power supply filtering ones.
Of course you need to be knowledgeable in electronics to evaluate on a case by case basis...
Is there a benefit to doing the extra homework?
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Re: Sanwa 29E31S differences in cap values

Post by Asayuki »

NoAffinity wrote:You can replace a cap with one that has a greater voltage rating, but the capacitance must match identically.
I'm not suggesting any "extra homework". I'm just pointing out that your "must" in the sentence above is more like a "should" instead.
For example, did you know that capacitors never have the exact advertised capacitance? Expecially for radial through hole electrolytic parts the manufacturing tolerance is typically very high: -20%/+80%.

Several other factors also come into play when selecting a capacitor, most notably ESR but also very importantly the operating temperature. Power conversion circuitries like the area around a monitor's LOPT typically require capacitors able to withstand unusual temperature ranges...
My 15kHz cabinet Peplos will never power up, with any item, and I am quite proud of that.
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Re: Sanwa 29E31S differences in cap values

Post by Shadolf »

Asayuki wrote: I'm not suggesting any "extra homework". I'm just pointing out that your "must" in the sentence above is more like a "should" instead.
For example, did you know that capacitors never have the exact advertised capacitance? Expecially for radial through hole electrolytic parts the manufacturing tolerance is typically very high: -20%/+80%.

Several other factors also come into play when selecting a capacitor, most notably ESR but also very importantly the operating temperature. Power conversion circuitries like the area around a monitor's LOPT typically require capacitors able to withstand unusual temperature ranges...
That´s what I thought too. Other capacity could be no problem, depending on the circuit. Maybe one would alter a frequency generated at a oscillating circuit like a LC-resonator or something. But could be no problem, if compensation/setting with a pot or other component is possible.
But I guess it´s more safe to just stick to the correct values. What I don´t get is, that the kit included caps with values that should also be used in other places, but in some of that other places there were "wrong" values included. Does that make any sense? Maybe, if the seller did his homework and "altered" some circuit, but honestly, he didn´t sound as if he knows anything about why the caps have those values.
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Re: Sanwa 29E31S differences in cap values

Post by NoAffinity »

^^Ok, we can argue over semantics. Conceded, "must" would have been better stated as "should". We are talking practical advice here, though, not re-engineering the circuit. Or did I mis-read the OP? Either one is applicable as far as a practical approach is concerned.

And as it relates to making assumptions about whether the seller knows what they're doing or not, well with assumptions comes risk. So, my advice stands: replace with a cap of equal or greater voltage rating and equal capacitance.
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Re: Sanwa 29E31S differences in cap values

Post by Shadolf »

NoAffinity wrote:^^Ok, we can argue over semantics. Conceded, "must" would have been better stated as "should". We are talking practical advice here, though, not re-engineering the circuit. Or did I mis-read the OP? Either one is applicable as far as a practical approach is concerned.

And as it relates to making assumptions about whether the seller knows what they're doing or not, well with assumptions comes risk. So, my advice stands: replace with a cap of equal or greater voltage rating and equal capacitance.
Everything´s allright mate.

tme.eu seems like a nice shop, thanks for the tipp. They have all I need. I just have another question about the C320 cap. It says 103J100 on it, so its 10pf x 10^3 = 10nF +-10%, its a Polymer-Foil-Condensator according to the service manual.
I found this one
http://www.tme.eu/de/details/smr5103j50 ... 165cbulk/#
it looks very different, but I think it is not that important which polymer is used!?
Another question is, do these PM caps break like electrolytics do and do they really need to be replaced? There are about 6 of 'em on the chassis and I would exchange them all.
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Re: Sanwa 29E31S differences in cap values

Post by nem »

Shadolf wrote:Another question is, do these PM caps break like electrolytics do and do they really need to be replaced? There are about 6 of 'em on the chassis and I would exchange them all.
I wouldn't bother changing PM caps.

Now I see why my values differed from yours, I was looking at an electrolytic cap that is near C320.
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