NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

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grantspain
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by grantspain »

uncletom wrote:Thanks again for info, Grant. Very useful.

Oh and right. Heater voltages. My experience says that most 28'' CRTs, at least the ones I've found, are 12V (not the 6,3V). I have a feeling that 6,3V are mostly older CRTs, am I right?

How many 28'', or 29'' use other than 12V heaters today?

Grant, will you please tell me about the '****' look in 15kHz? I'm curious in what way it's bad.

Also, have you ever tried a *MS8* chassi (& yoke) with a normal 28'', please? I'm curious about the geometry as the CRT in those 26'' MS8 is rounder.
**** 15khz means serious side compression
ms8-26 is a wierd **** yoke,0.300mh horizontal but 50 ohm vertical-high impedence
ms8-29su is similar yoke to ms9-29

dunno about heater voltage on different crt's,some of the new generic chassis from china look crap on standard 28" crt and thats down to the heater voltage
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uncletom
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by uncletom »

Thanks. Well, lucky me. I have successfully managed to avoid chinese chassis.

And yes, that MS8 26'' monitor uses a high impedance yoke. Also the old 15k Sanwa 20'' CRT monitors have like 55 Ohm on the vertikal coil. These don't really mix well with Hantarex. Seems like we in EU have other standards on TV and monitors than Japan.
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by uncletom »

We have UPDATE!

http://neo.dyndns.tv/technical/Nanao_MS ... /#Update02

This evening I tested one of my previous 'fixing CRTs', one that I used for fixing 25-29 inch chassis. It has an interesting handicap: a beam limit to max 1,4 mA! Why?
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by uncletom »

And here is another fine update to enjoy!

Two more CRTs tested with acceptable results, to be used as spare CRTs for MS9 burnt-in monitors.

http://neo.dyndns.tv/technical/Nanao_MS ... CRT_nokia/
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by emphatic »

I love you, Uncle. :mrgreen:
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by uncletom »

I know, Empi. I know.
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by geotrig »

wow just read this now ! :shock: awesome skills! :clap:
Image

<trk>:I remember catching a big fat one and my friend said "throw it back in, that one already tastes like wood"
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by uncletom »

Geotrig: No particular skills except keeping my fingers in places where the hi tension cannot whack me. Also certain basic TV/monitor-knowledge helps such as understanding how to wire the connections (or how not to wire the connections). It's really not a big deal. It's mostly a case of taking something appart, and then putting it together again in reverse order. I think that most people could manage it.

About your convergence there, Kernow:
The only factors to consider regarding any convergence in the monitors we're using are the yoke placement, which means how far in, or out on the CRT-neck its positioned, or tilted. And the charachteristics of the magnetic rings. Provided that the rings are in working order, meaning they are not cracked or demagnetized in some way, or if you're not using a wrong set of rings (it can happen when swapping CRTs), you shold be able to tweak your convergence to an acceptable degree.

What does go wrong with the convergence in most TVs and monitors eventually, I think, with time most plastic details around hot spots tend to get very fragile and crack. The yoke is made up of a ferrite torus with copper wire inside and around it. It does not deform noticably over time, even under heat. However, part of the yoke is also plastic which will change charachter after a certain time, not much but still enough to make a difference on a big picture. Same goes for the ring-assembly and ofcourse all potentiometers on the neckboard and chassi. I am not sure how much the CRT itself changes character (unless you have any kind of stronger magnetic accident), but since most of its parts are either metal or glass I would imagine that it's pretty stable. With the exception of its color guns and how (how well) these are 'doped', because these will get depleated sooner or later in life.
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by PrincessPrinPrin »

OK, doing tests is always fun but why must everything revolve around the MS9 chassis I don't understand though. The A66ECY13X01 is the standard tube used for many Intervideo chassis for instance. Why not just mate it with one of such chassis (which are very easy to find)? It will be as good as it gets and no yoke tinkering needed...
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by uncletom »

Very good points you have there, Princess.

I just like Nanao, and the MS8/9 are practical monitors. They are dual-sync and the MS9 has a comfortable adjustment-PCB with long harness. And the chassis with yoke can be adapted to work well with most 28-29 inch CRTs. Also, I've always been fascinated by the quality of Nanao compared to other, cheaper brands like Hantarex and Intervideo. Both the latter brands seem to use the same components and CRTs (very often Videocolor) which mostly aren't bad, but if you compare them to Nanao's monitors with Toshiba CRTs, you will notice the difference.

Also, personally I collect alot of 24 kHz games from Sega so 24k is for me very important. And I've got a few large old Sega monitors for free which I've gutted and stored as 'parts'. With a nice re-cap and a 'new' CRT they will have new life again. That is why I focus on the MS9 chassi. One could say that if there is a single 'best' chassi to test certain *large* CRTs with 24 khz, it is surely a MS9.

I want to mention to you further, Princess, that I also have a number of MTC 9000 chassis (Hantarex) that I really look forward to fixing. Currently I'm using a MTC9000 chassi to test any 20-21'' CRTs I find in the garbage disposal room. However, I didn't make a thread about it as I'm under the impression that larger CRTs and dual sync chassis are more important to document. The low-res CRTs are simple to swap because the MTC9000 is a low-res 15k monitor, and almost any 20-21 CRT from TVs will be basically plug'n play.

My motto is that 15k games should be played on a max size 21 inch CRT. Any larger screen and you will see the pixels and scan lines too clearly, with the exception of driving/flying/simulator games that do 15k I feel could be played on a screen as large as 29''. The 24k and 31k games should be played on a 28-29 inch CRT because these have smaller pixels and denser scan lines.

For the 15k games I think that the 21'' MTC9000 is the best possible monitor, even better than any Nanao brand. I would still never use a monitor as large as 28'' for the 15k games because I don't feel good about it. There's an optimal size for every occasion.


I want to answer this as well:
"Why not just mate it with one of such chassis (which are very easy to find)? It will be as good as it gets and no yoke tinkering needed..."

- No, there will always be yoke tinkering needed with any CRT swap regardless if it's low-res, mid-res or even a CRT swap between exactly the same monitor type and size. This is because we're dealing with analog devices and magnetic fields. Every CRT is unique, it has it's own little differences. You cannot manufacture two identical CRTs and expect them to behave exactly the same way. That is why you have that many adjustments and pots on the chassis and neck-PCB. And that is why you almost always need to add small magnets to the sides of the yoke, CRT, or around the neck. At least on the larger monitors. The 14 and 20 inch monitors doesn't have the same errors visible because everything is smaller, thus also smaller deviances.
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by PrincessPrinPrin »

uncletom wrote:Very good points you have there, Princess.

I just like Nanao, and the MS8/9 are practical monitors. They are dual-sync and the MS9 has a comfortable adjustment-PCB with long harness. And the chassis with yoke can be adapted to work well with most 28-29 inch CRTs. Also, I've always been fascinated by the quality of Nanao compared to other, cheaper brands like Hantarex and Intervideo. Both the latter brands seem to use the same components and CRTs (very often Videocolor) which mostly aren't bad, but if you compare them to Nanao's monitors with Toshiba CRTs, you will notice the difference.
I have two Nanao MS9, one with a Hitachi and the other with a Toshiba tube and also a Hantarex Polo 15-25KHz with NOS Videocolor A66EAS00X01 tube. I can't say anything about mid-res as I have no interest in that but when it comes to 15KHz stuff I think the Hantarex is in no way inferior to the Nanao. It's true that the stock components used by Hantarex are sometimes of a cheaper quality like the infamous Teapo brand capacitors but you can easily upgrade to higher quality ones.

What I dislike about the MS9 chassis is that it has a lot of SMD components (resistors, diodes, transistors, etc.) on solder side as opposed to the Hantarex chassis where everything is through-hole and on parts side. Also, Hantarex replacements are all easily available, including LOPT, switching transformer, coils. This can't be said for the MS9 (and the other Japanese-made chassis). When the LOPT goes tits up on that all the spare compatible tubes you may have will become useless (for it). Supposedly there is a Dienen replacement (HR46530) but it's as hard to find as the stock one.

uncletom wrote:Also, personally I collect alot of 24 kHz games from Sega so 24k is for me very important. And I've got a few large old Sega monitors for free which I've gutted and stored as 'parts'. With a nice re-cap and a 'new' CRT they will have new life again. That is why I focus on the MS9 chassi. One could say that if there is a single 'best' chassi to test certain *large* CRTs with 24 khz, it is surely a MS9.
I'm not denying that but it would be interesting to compare the results with other dual sync chassis like Polo/2 or Intervideo VP.
uncletom wrote:I want to mention to you further, Princess, that I also have a number of MTC 9000 chassis (Hantarex) that I really look forward to fixing. Currently I'm using a MTC9000 chassi to test any 20-21'' CRTs I find in the garbage disposal room. However, I didn't make a thread about it as I'm under the impression that larger CRTs and dual sync chassis are more important to document. The low-res CRTs are simple to swap because the MTC9000 is a low-res 15k monitor, and almost any 20-21 CRT from TVs will be basically plug'n play.

My motto is that 15k games should be played on a max size 21 inch CRT. Any larger screen and you will see the pixels and scan lines too clearly, with the exception of driving/flying/simulator games that do 15k I feel could be played on a screen as large as 29''. The 24k and 31k games should be played on a 28-29 inch CRT because these have smaller pixels and denser scan lines.

For the 15k games I think that the 21'' MTC9000 is the best possible monitor, even better than any Nanao brand. I would still never use a monitor as large as 28'' for the 15k games because I don't feel good about it. There's an optimal size for every occasion.
I couldn't agree more but the problem arises when you dislike Euro/US (wooden) cabs and love Japanese cabs. Unfortunately there isn't much choice when it comes to screen size. Almost all candy cabs from the 90's on have 29" monitors. I live in Italy and the only Japanese cabs you can easily find here are the Naomi Universals so I have to deal with that size. Well I also have an Aero luckily but yeah it sucks that there aren't 21" versions of Astros, Egrets, Naomis, etc. It sucks BIG time!

In the next months I'm planning to properly fit 28" monitors on the Naomis and 25" (and possibly 20") on the Aero.
uncletom wrote: I want to answer this as well:
"Why not just mate it with one of such chassis (which are very easy to find)? It will be as good as it gets and no yoke tinkering needed..."

- No, there will always be yoke tinkering needed with any CRT swap regardless if it's low-res, mid-res or even a CRT swap between exactly the same monitor type and size. This is because we're dealing with analog devices and magnetic fields. Every CRT is unique, it has it's own little differences. You cannot manufacture two identical CRTs and expect them to behave exactly the same way. That is why you have that many adjustments and pots on the chassis and neck-PCB. And that is why you almost always need to add small magnets to the sides of the yoke, CRT, or around the neck. At least on the larger monitors. The 14 and 20 inch monitors doesn't have the same errors visible because everything is smaller, thus also smaller deviances.
That's correct of course. I used the wrong word (tinkering), I meant no yoke swapping.
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by uncletom »

About the 'yoke tinkering'.
Right, if I would to fit a 15k Intervideo chassi on a 28'' Videocolor CRT with its standard 15k yoke, I wouldn't need to do any yoke swapping. That is right.

And "MS9 chassis is that it has a lot of SMD components":
- Oh yes. That is a bit of a nasty thing. But these are mostly just small resistors and nothing too critical, I think. I also prefer a simpler design with hole mounted stuff only, but the fact that there are a few SMDs on the solder side of the Nanao chassis hasn't bothered me too much. One just needs to be more careful when cleaning it.

Spare parts for Nanao; it is hard to get. However Nanao seldom break, is my experience. Contra the Polo2 dual-sync which I've had several chassis in for repair over a short time. A Nanao seems to work well although encapsulated inside an air tight cabinet with dead fans. A Hantarex Polo goes bad whenever, and for no particular reason. I would guess it's mostly due to bad/low-Q caps, but also simply the design of the chassi can be the reason as well as soldering material and component selection.

Also, my experience is that the Hitachi, Toshiba, even Samsung CRTs are much better lasting than the cheaper Thomson (France?) made Videocolor or any other European brands. If you look at a Nanao from an old Star Wars Trilogy and compare it to a Polo on some other game, you clearly see how the Polo CRT degrades faster than the Toshiba CRTs.

Also, (perhaps I imagine this) but I belive that the phosphors are better in the japanese and Korean CRTs. They have a more red color, and more green color, like more *vivid* colors? But ofcourse I could be imagining this.

My all time favourite chassi is infact the MTC 9000 (14-21 inch type). Although the flyback went bad on the first ones, if you replaced it with the better Diemen ones, it never broke again. But nowadays I can't seem to find any replacement flybacks for my MTC 9000 chassis.

Somthing else that I noted with the Polos, that's Polo 2 and Polostar (tri-synk), the black level is not as 'deep' as on Nanao monitors. If you play the game Indy 500 (SEGA Model 2) on a Nanao MS8 or MS9, on the third stage with the bridges you can see the dark areas OK, also your tires have a dark texture that is clearly visible on a Nanao monitor. You can try the Nebula Emulator too, there is clearly visible on your PC monitor those dark textures. However, if you play this game on a Hantarex Polostar you will not be able to see the darker tones as clearly, almost not at all! This is true. And if you tweak your brightness a little bit up so that you should see more, your black level turns grey and still you will not see more detail in that dark texture. (I hope you understand my explanation.) Perhaps this is a standard specification for the Polo, as it takes 1,5V to 5V pp RGB signal. I think that Nanao can take perhaps a wider range of RGB level 1,0 (or 0,5?) to 5 Vpp.

Otherwise Polo monitors are really comfortable to use, plenty of adjustments on the control-board and simple to fix. I used to love them before certain disappointments led me back to MTC 9000. Infact I can admit that Polo has a wider range on the picture width than MTC 9000 has. But the fact that you for instance need to connect the frame GND to the chassi puts me off totally. And if you *don't* connect the frame GND, you can zap the input diodes for RGB or sync. as there will be ESD happening.

Japanese cabinets and large low-res monitors:
Well, I don't hate them, but I don't like them either. They are very popular here in Sweden, many people buy them, including Empi here. But the design doesn't appeal to me, I think that they look like normal TVs or some motorbike helmets. Which is infact quite nice, both colorwise and shapewise. But I do not want this for my arcade cabinet. My arcade cabinet must be *wooden*. And rather slightly old fashion than super modern. Plastic is for kitchen appliances and children's toys. It also reminds me of todays modern cars, everything of plastic.
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by uncletom »

Update again. Testing my Quintrix here
http://neo.dyndns.tv/technical/Nanao_MS ... /#Update04
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by uncletom »

And another addition of CRTs

One Philips mono-TV with Philips CRT A66EAK71X01, and a Samsung TV with Thomson CRT A66EHJ13X38

Enjoy http://neo.dyndns.tv/technical/Nanao_MS ... /#Update05

I would like to ask you guys, or rather I should ask Grantspain directly about it; about the green grid being slightly larger vertically than the red & blue (magenta) grid. Why is it so, and why only on CRTs that used yokes with an electromagnetical expansion for convergence control?

Anybody here with a possible idea?

Editing.... " the green grid being slightly larger vertically than the red & blue (magenta) grid."
- This is totally wrong. Sorry guys. It is the opposite. I was just looking at the photos and the green grid is smaller than the magenta grid. Damn, I'm blind. I'll rephrase that on the test-page. Sorry about any confusion. The *magenta* grid is taller than the green grid. Nothing other.

.. aha. Seems I've got it right on the page. Where the hell did I get the "green grid is larger" from?? - It's *smaller*! Just as long as I don't confuse right with left today as I will be picking up my mother in law.

Still the fact, and problem, remains; one grid is taller then the other, and no physical magnets seem to be able to correct it.
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by uncletom »

Hey guys. I've got a surprise for you.

Where's that MS-2930-S thread again, please?

.. never mind. Mix'n blend, it's NANAO anyway.

How to take care of an old MS-2930-S
http://neo.dyndns.tv/technical/ms-2930-s/
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by davewellington »

Anyone know if the MS2931 uses the same caps as the MS2930? Useful having the list of caps and locations for a cap job.
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by uncletom »

Dave,

I think there may be slight difference in your shopping list because, although the ms-2930 and ms-2931 are similar models, they are different. The 30 uses a regular remote pot-PCB, and the 31 uses OSD-button control with chip. So you can imagine the slight variation of small caps. The larger caps should be exactly the same, but since I've not had any 31 on service yet, I can't swear.

Do you have some pictures of a ms-2931 chassi?

.. where's that thread again? You know with the 'goop' stuff?

After googling some on the "ms-2931", returning me to AO forums, various threads, I've looked at a few pics now, and I think that the 2931 infact has less caps than the 2930.
Last edited by uncletom on October 12th, 2011, 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by davewellington »

No worries then. Shopping lists are totally useful, do you have them for other chassis's? mind if I put them up on our wiki? Cheers
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by uncletom »

Please use my info on the wiki, Dave. I am happy to help out.

"More shopping lists"... Not at the moment, sorry. I made a little 'blog' about the ms-2930-s because I thought this monitor was particularly interesting, so I noted down all info as I went along. Other work hasn't been documented this thoroughly, or at all, I'm sorry to say.

Perhaps next time I fix one of my MTC 9000 chassis I'll make a similar page about it?
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Re: NANAO MS9 CRT replacing

Post by davewellington »

Yeah, any info is good info provided it's correct :)
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